this post was submitted on 07 Jun 2024
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programming.dev does not get it. Can you explain?
It is kinda obvious that maxist ideas are aligned with the open source ideas. Are they very much against commies?
There's some weird witch hunt going on against Dessalines on there. I don't agree with him on everything, but them trying to hound him out for being a communist, whilst using software he made because he's a communist is kinda funny.
Honestly I am dismayed we have this dumb ass reddit culture take hold. Not everything you disagree with must be ~~bannned from the sub~~ defederated immediately, your instance doesnt owe you a feed that's exactly how you like it. Defederation should be the last resort, since it entirely breaks communication and interaction between the instance's users.
Instead, use the client side blocking features to clean up your feed. Personally I have blocked over 80 communities and users because they are centered around topics or beliefs I dont want on my feed, I blocked two instances as well, but I can still read their user's comments and interact with their users outside the instances.
Defederating is just splintering the fediverse. Unless at all avoidable it shouldn't be done, in fact I chose my instance specifically because it defederates nobody but meta and illegal content such as gore and csam.
I always saw open source as more socialist than specifically communist. Similar to volunteering in your community. Except the community is the whole world, and you don't need to leave your house. Bonus!
To be honest I'd say it's more similar to anarchism than socialism. Anarchism is voluntarist whilst socialism demands state power first. Both are ideally paths to communism* though so I'm going to say "communism" 'cause it annoys the most people.
communism as in post capitalist, post state utopia, not Stalinism*
Him being communist isn't the problem, throwing his weight around unnecessarily is what is upsetting people. And he just keeps doing it. Like he just gets in a mood and decides to ban a bunch of people for fake violations they didn't actually do. It's all logged and people with high enough status can see the logs. He goes on tirades.
Aren’t the logs accessible to everyone? https://discuss.tchncs.de/modlog
At his level of power, he can apparently make some changes and then delete the log of them. Only other server admins can see it then. But I'm getting this second hand from other server admins, haven't seen it myself.
Dunno about best, but This is the most recent one, I think
Not exactly. This started yesterday, when a user accused mods on .ml of, "tankie censorship," (meaning censorship by tankies, not of tankies). He also came with some pretty good receipts that appear to show .ml mods removing criticism of China that, whether you agree with it or not, didn't seem to violate any rules, and was well within the bounds of what most people would consider civil discourse. He also claims to have received bans from all of the .ml communities he'd ever participated in for pointing this bias out. It's possible he's presenting all of this with his own slant, but what he showed seems legit, and I'm not sure he could have provided more evidence without encouraging brigading.
This is now starting to snowball, with users starting to call for defederating from .ml. One .world user also posted on .cafe about Dessalines previous tankie comments, while another user has posted about finding replacements for the largest .ml communities.
So, saying what's happing on .world is anti-communist isn't accurate, as most the criticism has been anti-tankie. However, .world has a much higher level of liberals than most of Lemmy (they created a little echo chamber for themselves on Political Memes), and most of them are incapable or unwilling to understand the difference between a tankies and communists (or tankies and leftists...or tankies and criticism of Biden...). So, it will probably only be a matter of time before this group tries to blur the line between valid criticism of baised moderation from authoritarian apologists to general criticism of leftists.
So, tl;dr: .world isn't broadly anti-communist, but a large portion of the community is upset about what appears to be biased moderation from tankie .ml mods, and there is a small contingent of .world liberals who I'm sure will take this opportunity to bash anyone to their left.
The problem with this is that "Tankie" is a sliding target, including all Marxists. If you claim to only have a problem with Tankies, not all Marxists, but do your best to attack the majority of Marxists, does that mean the majority of Marxists are Tankies, or that .world has become an anticommunist instance?
I'd say this will only end up creating a multipolar Lemmy. Dessalines has already stated that .ml will not be the first to defed, as they believe in an interconnected Lemmy. However, the target boogyman for .worlders has shifted from Grad, to Hexbear, to now .ml. After .world finally defeds from .ml, will they shift towards db0? Lemm.ee, perhaps? Who knows.
This isn't the first time this has happened, haha.
Tankie used to have a specific and clear meaning
But then people not in the know learned the word without caring what it meant
So now it just means "guy that I think is an asshole (leftist beliefs optional but expected)"
Wasn't it .world that defed from db0 already (but later added it back) because of the piracy support? Or maybe that was .ee? When that happened I moved from that instance to here.
Honestly i wouldn't mind. Users on .world that don't want a butt load of defederations will probably (and hopefully) move to another instance, whilst the rest of lemmy will be free from all the liberals uncapable of discriminating between communists and tankies
And .world would be free of all the communists incapable of discriminating between communists and tankies. Everyone wins.
I really only started to see the meaning of tankie start sliding once I got to Lemmy, and it goes in two directions; tankies who swear they aren't tankies, they just have a lot of feelings about why the Uyghurs aren't being mistreated, and liberals who literally think tankie is a synonym for leftist. (Seriously, if Lemmy has one unforgivable sin, it's introducing the, "but her emails," crowd to the word tankie.) Personally, I don't care if I get tankies in my feed, but I'm not OK with instances that censor opinions they don't like (I mean, assuming they're not bigoted). Those mod logs are pretty damning, I'd like to hear from the .ml mods why they felt those weren't legitimate discourse.
Honestly, my real takeaway from this whole mess is that it's really dispelled the myth of federation as a silver bullet for all of social media's ills. Federation was sold to me as a solution to overly-large internet communities, since federation would stop single communities from becoming too powerful, and communities could simply be defederated if they didn't get along. Meanwhile, .world is whining that .ml's communities are too large and important to lose, while .ml is bitching that .world defederating would be egregious and unreasonable. The whole thing feels more like a flame war between some large subreddits than the glorious online utopia that I was told federation would bring us. Actually, it feels a lot like the schism that started when r/antiwork fell apart.
I don't think .ml is whining about .world defeding, more like thinking it would be goofy, but expecting it.
This was already happening in Reddit roughly 2 years ago.
This isn't an attack on your comment, which gave quality information, but I think it's relevant to the conversations linked in your comment.
Their definition of authoritarian is a contradiction to their actions and used subjectively. "I hate authoritarianism, so we should defederate to keep out the authoritarians." This statement is supportive of a fundamentally authoritarian action.
This is also why people who use the term "tankies" seriously are themselves deeply unserious. Their understanding of the topic is superficial at best and colored only by Western biases rooted in anti-communist propaganda. The concept of authoritarianism was itself a product of propaganda.
Saying "no" is authoritarian. Holding elections is authoritarian. Authority itself doesn't matter, what matters is who is in power and how they use their power to influence the world.
Some people recognize and accept this reality and then openly support the power that best aligns with their own benefit.
Anger at tankies is usually just a lack of class consciousness and ignorance based on a term that changes based on who you support and who you do not.
And that, right there, is an example of the paradox of tolerance of intolerance.
They are very active though, and they don't lose their chance to mention and antagonize .ml, which I think is kind of shitty. It happens even in threads where people are commenting about stuff unrelated to politics. lemmy.world is constantly looking for targets to defederate from.
edit: I'd like to mention that I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just giving my perspective on it.
Oh, yeah, they're a very loud, obnoxious little group, and removing users that are only interested in picking fights is perfectly valid. But the screenshots from the original post really only seemed to be talking about China's censorship of Tiananmen Square, and while it's impossible to say without of context, their tone really didn't seem to be combative. They just seemed to be expressing opinions about China that didn't align with the .ml mods' beliefs, and that's troubling.
What's more, Dessalines gave a response that's kinda telling about all this. A user called .ml out on censorship (in a very respectful tone), and Dessalines basically replied saying asking questions is OK when it's done in good faith, but a lot of people only ask them to start fights. When the user replied that he was actually talking about people being censored for expressing opinions in good faith that run counter to .ml mods beliefs, Dessalines chose not to reply.
I really seems like .ml wants to remove opinions that run contrary to the mods beliefs about communism. If that is the case, fair enough, but then maybe it does make sense for instances that don't moderate that way to defederate. I don't want to worry about policing myself on a bunch of the communities in my feed because I might get banned for my opinion on a news story.
Maybe these fears are unfounded, and this whole thing is being blown out of proportion, but none of the .ml mods have addressed the original post yet. Dessalines has left several comments on the Ask Lemmy post Are You a Tankie, but he's chosen not to reply to the censorship claim. Given the silence, I have to assume the worst.
Based on just your link, it just kinda looks like he was posting unsourced gore. That doesn't feel like civil discourse to me.
I don't really see any criticism being removed. If Katana314's message was congruent with reality it would count, but otherwise just making accusations isn't criticism.
.world is basically Reddit 2, but filled with the most radical liberals that specifically want to not be exposed to leftist instances, even db0 has a tenuous relation with them.
.world is constantly on anticommunist witch hunts, and now that Lemmygrad and Hexbear are not visible to them thanks to defederation, .ml is the last large Marxist-aligned instance they can see, so it's the new boogeyman.
One of them tried to tell me Lemmy is Capitalist because posting is value, lmao
Posting is labor 🫡
Smh Dessalines is taking my labor power
… what does that even mean …
Which part? Posting being value? They tried to use Marx' Labor Theory of Value to say that because admins aren't decided democratically, and posting is labor and therefore creates Value, Lemmy is Capitalist.
This is, in fact, ridiculous, because Lemmy has a Use-Value but no Exchange-Value. Posting isn't labor, and anyone can fork it.