cross-posted from: https://sopuli.xyz/post/13133455
It used to be that you could insert a coin into a washing machine and it would simply work. Now some Danish and German apartment owners have decided it’s a good idea to remove the cash payment option. So you have to visit a website and top-up your laundry account before using the laundry room.
Is this wise?
Points of failure with traditional coin-fed systems:
- your coin gets stuck
- you don’t have the right denomination of coins
Points of failure with this KYC cashless gung-ho digital transformation system:
- your internet service goes down
- the internet service of the laundry room goes down
- the website is incompatible with your browser
- the website forces 3rd party JavaScript that’s either broken or you don’t trust it
- you cannot (or will not) solve CAPTCHA
- the website rejects your IP address because it is a shared IP
- the payment processor rejects your IP address because it is a shared IP
- the bank rejects your IP address because it is a shared IP
- the payment processor is Paypal and you do not want to share sensitive financial data with 600 corporations
- the accepted payment forms do not match your payment cards
- the accepted payment form matches, but your card is still rejected anyway for one of many undisclosed reasons:
- your card is on the same network but foreign cards are refused
- the payment processor does not like your IP address
- the copy of your ID doc on file with the bank expired, and the bank’s way of telling you is to freeze your card
- it’s one of these new online-only bank cards with no CVV code printed on the card so to get your CVV code you must install their app from Google’s Playstore (this expands into 20+ more points of failure)
- your bank account is literally below the top-up minimum because you only have cash and your cashless bank does not accept cash deposits; so you cannot do laundry until you get a paycheck or arrange for an electronic transfer from a foreign bank at the cost of an extortionate exchange rate
- you cannot open a bank account because Danish banks refuse to serve people who do not yet have their CPR number (a process that takes at least 1 month).
- you are unbanked because of one of 24 reasons that Bruce Schneier does not know about
- the internet works when you start the wash load, but fails sometime during the program so you cannot use the dryers; in which case you suddenly have to run out and buy hanging mechanisms as your wet clothes sit.
- (edit) the app of your bank and/or the laundry service demands a newer phone OS than you have, and your phone maker quit offering updates.
In my case, I was hit with point of failure number 11. Payment processors never tell you why your payment is refused. They either give a uselessly vague error, or the web UI just refuses to move forward with no error, or the error is an intentional lie. Because e.g. if your payment is refused you are presumed to be a criminal unworthy of being informed.
Danish apartment management’s response to complaints: We are not obligated to serve you. Read the terms of your lease. There is a coin-operated laundromat 1km away.
Question: are we all being forced into this shitty cashless situation in order to ease the hunt for criminals?
I hear you, but also fuck coins.
Sometimes I hate that I can't downvote. This is just a very silly and mindless opinion. What the heck is your problem with having an option? With a possibility?
Oh no! An opinion I don’t agree with! Oh no! Our arrow buttons are useless! Quick! Insult him!
That wasn't just an insult, but honest opinion. The fact that you didn't respond to the questions shows that it was actually a mindless opinion. "I don't want to deal with this, I don't even want to see this, take it away, I don't care if others wanted to use it!"
Fuck coins. They actively make the world worse.
Restrictions and surveillance of digital payment systems even more. But at least that's convenient, right?
I think it’s too hard for many to grasp the full consequence of surveillance via forced banking. They link cash to privacy which they then mentally reduce to “confidentiality”. It’s a lossy reduction but in the naïve brain privacy=confidentiality. They don’t realise privacy is about /control/, not just purely infosec concept of confidentiality, which then leads to the mental short-sightedness of thinking they’re dealing with “paranoia” (which is hinted in vzq’s next reply).
From there, I don’t have the answer as far as how to convey the full depth of the whole concept of privacy within the span of a post or comment that’s short enough to not be automatically ignored.
Oh no! I am being berated by an internet stranger that sounds like a nineteen nineties “do you know where your children are” special. What will I do?
Is it that you prefer not to insert coins, or that you prefer not to end up with coins? In principle a machine could take bills, but then you’d be getting coins back if you need change.
I’ve seen a laundromat with a centralized cash machine. You can insert as much in bills and coins as you want, then you tap the numbers of the machines you want to send the credit to. This single transaction made it easy if you needed to start ~3+ washing machines. If you plan diligently, you can ensure you don’t end up with coins, but then you need to bring coins.
I prefer coins because the rejection rate seems to be far lower than banknotes. But euro coins are probably more sensibly denominated than other countries. The US is a bit of an embarrassment in this regard because the $1 liberty coins never caught on, so people need a ton of quaters or small banknotes would can get quite ratty.
Yes, though in the building I lived in, you'd have to use 50 cent coins and you'd need 2,50€ to start them. The local banks all refused to exchange anything for 50 cent coins unless you'd take 200€ worth
Those engineers took simple design to the fullest extent. But then the landlord dropped the ball or cheaped out by not offering a change machine which could easily be fed when emptying the other machines.
I must say I like the side-effect. It pressures people to use cash in shops. This is a good thing because the #warOnCash is going the way Bill Gates wants it to, which gives more power to the banks and corporations at the expense of disempowering the people. The funny thing about your interaction with the bank is that it serves as yet another instance of banks not using their position ethically. Banks love the war on cash, so making it hard to withdraw or deposit serves as more proof that giving banks exclusive control is a bad idea.
Have you tried this hack? → Buy groceries and intentionally overpay with your card and ask for the difference as cash back in the form of as many as 50¢ coins as the cashier is willing to give?
I generally loathe cash. But coins in particular.
Bill Gates and the https://betterthancash.org alliance loves you.
I used to be that way. Used a card to pay for everything; even just a candybar. Then I noticed the banks abusing their power, rampant data breaches because banks and credit bureaus don’t give a shit about data protection, large banks financing private prisons and fossil fuels, small banks investing with large banks, banks abusing KYC to collect far more than legally required, banks taking extortionate fees from merchants, banks nannying consumers by blocking wikileaks, banks forcing people to contract with Google to get their app then forcing people to upgrade their phone hardware (creating more e-waste), etc.
At one point I came to realise I’ve recklessly made myself part of those problems by using banks more than necessary. Banks need a shorter leash and consumers should be holding that leash.
I mean, sure. But I’m not going to lug around cash like it’s the 1970s. Doesn’t even fit in my wallet. That I never take with me.
Where I live (London) things are virtually cashless. Nearly everything is just paid for be contactless. I basically never have coins and it would be a huge hassle to get them.
I love it, honestly.
OK, but you can attach a piece of tape to a coin and use just 1 coin to power the entire load. Unless it has one of those load all the coins into a tray at the same time and push them in mechanisms. Which, in that case, fuck coins.
Are you suggesting I engage in fraud and theft of service?
Well, shit.
Now that you put it that way.