this post was submitted on 30 Apr 2024
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[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works -1 points 5 months ago (13 children)

In a legal context, the term monopoly is also used to describe a variety of market conditions that are not monopolies in the truest sense. For instance, the term monopoly may be referring to instances where:

  • There are many buyers or sellers, but one actor has enough market share to dictate prices (near monopolies)

Restraint of competition:

Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthand for a firm with significant and durable market power — that is, the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors.

I'm not thrilled how every reply pretends I follow up "Steam has overwhelming market share" with "and they're EEEVIL!!!"

I haven't said shit about Valve, ethically. I outright said Netflix's short-lived monopoly was better for consumers. I certainly haven't defended Epic, whatever the hell that other guy wants to rail against.

But Valve obviously has power.

Valve has the ability to do these things.

Their competitors don't.

Steam's market share is so high, they could do whatever they want, whether or not they ever do.

We are talking about a long-awaited critical darling of a game, and we are talking about how its sales blow, specifically because it's not on Steam. Yes, it has sales, but it doesn't have enough sales, unless it goes through this one store. Defending the store's practices will not change that. Defending the conditions that led here will not change that. It is a dead simple fact that Steam's market share is real fuckin' high. So high that everyone else barely counts. We have a word for that.

[–] DarthYoshiBoy@kbin.social 3 points 5 months ago (11 children)

First things first, you cherry picked the one thing from my link that supports your position intentionally ignoring that it is a single prong in a standard that has several. Second, I'm glad you brought the FTC link, because they also do not agree with your stance if you bring the whole context from your own link into the conversation:

As a first step, courts ask if the firm has "monopoly power" in any market. This requires in-depth study of the products sold by the leading firm, and any alternative products consumers may turn to if the firm attempted to raise prices. Then courts ask if that leading position was gained or maintained through improper conduct—that is, something other than merely having a better product, superior management or historic accident. Here courts evaluate the anticompetitive effects of the conduct and its procompetitive justifications.

Your definition only meets one portion of the FTC standard, which is why my comment addressed how Valve fails to meet any of the points of the standard beyond the dominant market position. YES STEAM IS MARKET DOMINANT, BUT NO THEY ARE NOT A MONOPOLY BECAUSE THEY DON'T MEET ANY OTHER PORTION OF THE STANDARD.

But Valve obviously has power.

To do what? PC is an open platform that they don't control.

Valve has the ability to do these things.

To make people raise prices or exclude competitors? Again, how or where?

Their competitors don’t.

Epic is LITERALLY excluding competitors right now for a bunch of titles, other competitors have done likewise until they recognized that customers didn't like it and decided that it wasn't in their best interest to do so.

Steam’s market share is so high, they could do whatever they want, whether or not they ever do.

Not to beat a dead horse, but how? They literally have no control over PC users beyond that which they've earned from being the best of MANY options, so how could they possibly parlay that into a power they could use to exert force over consumers or developers? Unless they did something that made them into not the best option, they have competition from every angle including from their direct competitors at Microsoft whose platform (as of March 2024) houses 96.67% of their customers with Windows being the dominant OS for Steam users by an absurd amount. There's incredible danger for Steam to try and pull anything anti-competitive because they literally live in the house that their competition built.

We are talking about a long-awaited critical darling of a game, and we are talking about how its sales blow, specifically because it’s not on Steam. Yes, it has sales, but it doesn’t have enough sales, unless it goes through this one store. Defending the store’s practices will not change that. Defending the conditions that led here will not change that.

You seem to imply that Steam being a monopoly has caused Remedy to suffer poor sales. However, we have the following problems there:

A) Steam fails to meet the legal definition of a monopoly. Just full stop. You attempt to take singular statements from a legal concept that by design has multiple prongs (specifically because we do not choose to harm companies who do no competitive wrong and come to their dominant position through the art of their craft being superior), but that's just willfully misunderstanding the concept of a monopoly.

and

B) A developer choosing to launch their game on the Evercade Vs and failing to see the sorts of sales numbers they might expect on Sony Playstation/Microsoft Xbox/Nintendo Switch is hardly a justification to claim that the game did poorly because Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo are a oligopoly. The dev CHOSE to launch on a shittier platform, one that doesn't offer all the things that the current market expects. The devs are going to see lesser sales as a result, that's just how it works, they weren't harmed by a monopoly effect, they were harmed by their poor market choices.

It is a dead simple fact that Steam’s market share is real fuckin’ high. So high that everyone else barely counts. We have a word for that.

See, I think your problem may be that you think market share aside, all other things are equal, which is simply not the case. By your logic I should be able to offer you a nice shiny and new Evercade Vs in exchange for your Playstation 5 because it's only the market share that makes it so that the Evercade has less games to play? It's only natural where Steam is bringing more to the table, it has more customers as a result. EGS offers a pale shadow of what a consumer gets from Steam, so why should they count as much? Who owes them that? They need to get on that level if they want that credit due. They currently matter about as much as the effort they're putting into competing, which I'll agree isn't much, but is hardly relevant here.

[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works -2 points 5 months ago (10 children)

Pointing out which meaning applies is how definitions work. One is enough.

Cherry-picking is highlighting part of a paragraph, and ignoring that it begins: As a first step, courts ask if the firm has “monopoly power” in any market. The documents you picked are telling you, being a monopoly and doing harm are separate questions. The ability comes first, and that ability comes directly from market dominance.

Epic is LITERALLY excluding competitors right now for a bunch of titles

... a monopoly is not about who carries one specific game. It's about the market. The market you know Steam dominates.

When Steam excludes a game, for any reason, that game usually sells a lot less. Orders of magnitude, sometimes. That is the power they wield over all games, as a game market. The fact they don't abuse it is a defense against legal action - but we're discussing legal actions that can only apply to monopolies. Determining whether they have that power comes first.

Those sales figures do not respond to price changes, either. Epic can offer whatever sale they like - for most sales, the price on Steam is the price. Y'know. Like in the definition I pointed out. The one that is the way that things are.

The dev CHOSE to launch on a shittier platform

'Poor sales are your own fault for not selling through the one store that matters,' says monopoly understander.

By your logic

Nothing sensible ever follows these words.

[–] DarthYoshiBoy@kbin.social 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

Pointing out which meaning applies is how definitions work. One is enough.

So which is it? Because the only one that might apply is the last and that one has a complicated legal meaning that is multiple parts of which you only seem to care about a single part: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monopoly

[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works -1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

It's the definition given by your own fucking source. The one you called "cherry-picking."

It's not "a single prong in a standard that has several," there's a list of meanings, and one of them applies.

That page even reminds you: not all monopolies are illegal. Maybe you should re-read it?

[–] DarthYoshiBoy@kbin.social 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Here, it's easy:

Then courts ask if that leading position was gained or maintained through improper conduct—that is, something other than merely having a better product, superior management or historic accident.

Does not in fact say:

Then courts ask if that monopoly was gained or maintained through improper conduct—that is, something other than merely having a better product, superior management or historic accident.

The standard has multiple prongs. You might have "monopoly power" without in fact being a monopoly because being a monopoly requires meeting a legal standard where being the in the leading position of a market is not the singular qualifier.

[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)

You're quoting a sentence that defines anticompetitive practices, not a sentence that defines a monopoly.

Here is a sentence from the same page that defines a monopoly:

Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthand for a firm with significant and durable market power — that is, the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors.

[–] DarthYoshiBoy@kbin.social 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors.

Which you seem to take for a granted, but won't provide even a theoretical for how that might have happened here?

[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works -1 points 5 months ago

Ability means "they can," not "they did."

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