this post was submitted on 01 Mar 2024
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No Stupid Questions

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[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 28 points 8 months ago (22 children)

As soon as you are asking this seriously, the answer for you personally is: better don't.

You don't know the future, you can never know what will be done with the things you have built and who will be doing it.

If you are a young person, you are simply looking to make money (and maybe don't do much harm at the same time, but that's second priority), and I think that's quite OK for a while.

The older you get, the more weight you put on the question: what are you really doing there every day and for whose benefit?

[–] Kor@lemm.ee 12 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (21 children)

Counterpoint: what about all the weapons used by Ukraine to defend itself and western democracy against Russian aggression and imperialism? Should those not have been made?

Edit: Editing my most top level comment to point out possible subsequent vote brigading. When this post was only half a day old I received way more upvotes than the people I debated. Now that this post has gotten older the ratio is closer to neutral without any new comments pointing to any flaws in my argument. Hence, I think my debate partners felt the need to involve their equally misled friends to downvote my arguments and upvote their previously negatively voted comments back into the positives. Seems very inorganic to me.

Edit 2: The above edit is mostly meant for my discussion thread with NeoNachtwaechter.

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (11 children)

I wish I had a thorough answer for you, but I'm afraid it would be very, very complicated. This war came out of a complex situation and we (westerners) can understand only a fraction of it all.

But I give you just a simple idea to think about:

Imagine all these weapons would not have existed, on both sides, then maybe there would have been a war anyway, but probably much less killing and suffering.

[–] Kor@lemm.ee 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

I agree with you in theory, but the current reality just does not give a fuck about wishful thinking. As long as there are despots like Putin, Xi Jinping, et al., who see our democratic values as a threat to their own autocratic views we simply have to live with the fact that we have to build weapons to deter their imperialistic goals.

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world -1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Now that is not only too simple thinking, but it is also not true. As far as your weapons are used there, it is for your own imperialistic goals.

[–] Kor@lemm.ee 0 points 8 months ago (1 children)

So you prefer autocracies over democracies? Am I understanding you correctly?

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 0 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Now you are mixing up things badly. The answer is No. You are not understanding.

[–] Kor@lemm.ee 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

I think I am understanding you very well. You say democratic imperialism is just as bad as autocratic imperialism, creating a false balance when you agree that autocracies are inherently worse for humanity than democracies. Furthermore, Ukraine was attacked by a far more capable force than their own. They, by the very definition of imperialism, cannot be imperialistic by simply fighting for its own survival against an autocratic and clearly imperialist Russia.

[–] foenkyfjutschah@programming.dev 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

nonono, there's no democratic imperialism. that's not aligning with our values that we let Ukrainians die for. please mind the talking points and don't mention Turkey.

[–] Kor@lemm.ee 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I didn't bring it up, NeoNachtwaechter did. I simply continued to use the term to point out their hipocrisy.

However, there certainly is such a thing as democratic imperialism. What else would you call Nixon giving the order to overthrow the newly elected socialist Chilean president Allende in 1970 and then condoning the fascist Pinochet's coup to power in 1973? Or the USA's "war on terror" post-9/11 by invading inter alia Iraq and Afghanistan? I could go on.

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

No, you still don't.

You say democratic imperialism is just as bad as autocratic imperialism

I said nothing like that.

I said that your imperialism exists and that your weapons are used for it. But I did not judge your imperialism as better or worse or equal.

you agree that autocracies are inherently worse for humanity than democracies.

I also did not say that. You are making up lots and lots of things :-/

I don't even know whether or not you are living in a democratic country (but I think I can deduct from your texts that you think you do).

[–] Kor@lemm.ee 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Carefully read your replies to my comments. My interpretation of your replies is made in good faith that you want to argue constructively against my position. Simply stating "no" to any of my questions just does not cut it without any evidence to support your opinion. I therefore must assume that you are arguing in favor of Russia, when you pull out whataboutisms and false balances about

your own [Western] imperialistic goals

without properly engaging and refuting my realist observations about Russia. You should learn debate discipline or to properly express your opinion to avoid such misinterpretarions, as your very open and underequipped replies leave just as much room to attack your position as Ukraine's open and underequppied situation before the war sparked Russian aggression.

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