For the record, though, any nation-state that got big did all of that. That is literally what industrialization has more or less always looked like. The US used to run sweatshops and disappear/murder activists of any kind, especially the ones who pushed back against the pennies-an-hour sweatshops. It wasn't until the 20th century that US courts even started reading the First Amendment to mean the government had an obligation to not fuck you up just for your political beliefs (see this title since that's a larger historical argument than can fit on Lemmy).

You don't get social freedom and rights in an industrial society until it hits a very high point of development. This has been true of more or less anywhere.

While we could argue China should have looked for a better way to develop, the United States also helped create an international system in the middle of the 20th century where the only real option was to aggressively industrialize in an even worse way than the US did, or just be subject to outright neocolonialism (and then develop your industry also in a bad way, also likely without rights, and then not have a rounded enough economy to do anything other than be exploited by richer countries), and then, when China decided to just take a heavy state-led path that employed capitalism and tools of standard industrial nation-building to set themselves up as a powerful capitalist nation-state, like they were "supposed" to, Western countries, the US in particular, bought in hard and financed everything they're now recoiling against.

China's great sin, in this context (and while I'm being slightly sarcastic there, sure, the way they're industrializing/running shit is bad), was choosing to use their enormous land-mass, resource base, and population to not just be on the very bottom. If America/the West had wanted to see the world industrialize better and more humanely, they should have tried at literally any point to help the world industrialize better and more humanely. At this point, it's a little absurd for Westerners to complain a situation they created and financed extensively for decades.

[–] HughJanus@lemmy.ml -4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Really not looking for whataboutisms to justify their atrocities...

[–] guitarsarereal@sh.itjust.works 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I don't know that I justified it, just pointed out a basic historical truth about industrialization. With a shred of historical context it's trivial to turn the conversation from "ew China evil" to "is it possible to industrialize without this shit?" which is a question anybody should have been asking from the very beginning.

At the end of the day, lambasting China for doing all the things industrializing nations have always done, without offering a concretely better, alternative path for industrialization, and simultaneously demanding they achieve a similar level of development as the West without doing anything the West did to get there, is honestly just pointless. The West imposed a competitive market system based on the preposterous violence of industrial production on the rest of the world, and are now going to be collectively hoisted by our own petards over the next few decades.

If we wanted them to industrialize without shit like ethnic homogenization/genocide/systematic exploitation of labor/everything else, we might have tried blazing a path to economic development that wasn't based on those things.