One point here: the government doesn't pay out a large chunk of it's earnings to people who did nothing to ensure that the product or service was delivered.

They got paid a large percentage of revenue because they're shareholders.

Tell me again why taking a big pile of money from customers, who are very likely not wealthy (at least for the majority), and giving it to wealthy people, is "more efficient" than the government doing the same job and just, not doing that?

If you cut out the profit, the "business" runs more lean, no matter which way you arrange the numbers. I would argue that a more lean business model is simply more efficient. The dollars going in simply result in more output per dollar. IMO, that's efficient.

Am I taking crazy pills here?

[–] AnanasMarko@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago (1 children)

While I agree with you completely, the argument for a counter-point would be that exactly because the private company should create as much profit for the owners as possible - it has to be as lean / efficient as possible.

That is not true for "the goverment" as profit is not an encentive to rationalize the work process.

What I find interesting are goverment agencies that operate on both levels. A great example is Ordenance Survey in UK. While they provide a public service, they also sell some of their products commercially to cover some operating costs (hiking maps etc.).

[–] mrcleanup@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

because the private company should create as much profit for the owners as possible - it has to be as lean / efficient as possible.

Yeah but no. It would be if the owner/shareholders weren't skimming of the top. The process may be lean but the pricing is designed to maximize and take as much as the market will bear. Which undoes the benefit the efficiency could bring to a public service.

[–] yo_scottie_oh@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

But the shareholders didn’t do nothing, they provided capital.

[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Except they didn't. Whomever purchased the stock initially did, and often that amount is a shadow of what the stock is currently traded at.

It's also a figure that's been repaid over and over again as dividends have been paid.

With government organizations, the public, aka debt devices, aka the public wallet, pays for the initial investment. Once that investment is made it pays for itself over and over in goods and services over the lifetime of the investment.

Shareholders are basically the landlords of wall street. They contribute nothing and feel like they deserve everything.

[–] yo_scottie_oh@lemmy.ml -4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Except they didn't. Whomever [sic] purchased the stock initially did, and often that amount is a shadow of what the stock is currently traded at.

This ignores two other very important roles that subsequent shareholders play:

Give initial investors the opportunity re-deploy their capital elsewhere when they choose to do so.
Signal the value of the company’s equity, in real time, on the open market. When the stock is trading above IPO price (as your rebuttal implies), this enables the company to raise more capital by borrowing against its equity and/or selling shares of its own stock.

In light of these critical roles, it’s vastly unfair to say that shareholders contribute nothing to the delivery of goods and services—quite the opposite.

[–] SmoothIsFast@citizensgaming.com 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

this enables the company to raise more capital by borrowing against its equity

You can always get asset backed loans, even as a company, why should we be welfare for businesses?

Also you would need an uncaptured market for anything you said to even have an effect, when 90% of trades are completed off market not effecting the price on the tape are we really doing anything but getting fleeced by market makers? You aren't signaling anything when your trade data is being bought and hidden from the market using PFOF techniques.

In light of the objective failures of our market it's extremely fair to say shareholders have no contribution to the delivery of goods and services. Could they in a perfect market sure, but I could have everything in utopia, to bad that doesn't exist.

[–] yo_scottie_oh@lemmy.ml -2 points 11 months ago

why should we be welfare for businesses?

Who said anything about welfare?

[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Okay, I'm not getting into a debate about organizational behaviour, economics and finance with an unarmed person.

Good day to you sir/madam.

[–] yo_scottie_oh@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

For the kids reading at home, this is what an ad hominem attack looks like—a logical fallacy in which one attacks their opponent personally instead of addressing the merits of their argument.

[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 months ago

I'm just tired, and the context of your statements show a dramatic lack of understanding for how business operates.

Good luck tho. 👍