this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2023
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Almost like when you take religion out of the picture it's one country committing genocide against another which is never okay for any reason. Israel can scream "but muh anti-semitism" all they want but it's a scapegoat. Ignore Jewish/Muslim backgrounds and look at what's really going on. It's nothing but a disgusting land grab and genocide that's been going on since WW2.
The world would 100% be a better place without Israel, and that's nothing to do with their religion. The country itself is evil and corrupt. They are bigoted and hypocritical. Israel deserves no sympathy or support. Out of all the bullshit I've seen happen in the middle east the past few decades, Israel is definitely the most abhorrent and repulsive source of conflict.
The world would also be a better place without Islam, but how realistic or ethical is it to seriously call for such a thing?
You can say "the world would be better without Israel" without actually calling for the eradication of the country. I think creating Israel was a historical mistake, but that doesn't make it a mistake you can just paint over. Solutions must come from acknowledging the current reality and the innocent people who live at both sides of the border and their rights and dignity.
do you genuinely think israel wants this tiny stretch of land, even at the cost of all of this(thousands of israelis dead, more soldiers die every day, rockets and terror attacks from lebanon, syria and yemen, and all the public backlash) I'll tell you a hint, they truly don't and if they did, they won't take it this slowly, and this carefully not to hurt civilians if they truly just wanted the tiny piece of land, it would have been so kuch easier to just indiscriminately level the entire place (without the need for a ground invasion)
I know I'm not gonna change any minds here as people like you who have already decided israel is the culmination of all evil won't back down from that belief that easily, but just try to not assume every israeli born is a racist Palestinian hater, and try to think why would they go through all of this, what do they stand to gain or to lose, assuming of course they are rational human beings
btw if it's genocide for the past 56 years, they are truly really really bad at committing genocide
I'd say they're good at it considering they're getting away with it.
What do you think about Hamas? Why do they exist and what is their actual agenda? Is it really at the very top simply helmed by limousine-riding desert kings in Quatar?
Hamas is as bad as Isreal, but they are Isreal's own creation. Most Palestinians don't support Hamas just like most Isrealis don't support their own government. It is two governments trying to commit genocide on the others civilians. Their are no good guys here. Just thousands of innocent civilians being massacred on both sides. The main difference is the US has decided to give one of these governments committing genocide the most advanced weapons available and practically no governments are even trying to help the Palestinians anymore. Not to mention hamas is commiting genocide to take back land the palestinians had a 100 years ago while the isrealis are commiting genocide to take back land they had 2000 years ago while pretending the palestians never even existed and spouting off racist revisionist history.
Yeah, Hamas isn't as bad as Israel, it's literally a resistance movement to the people that ethnically cleansed their population from their land and kept them in a concentration camp for two decades. The unbalanced condemnation tbph is the result of a concerted Israeli/Western propaganda campaign to obscure the context and nature of the attacks, including the hundreds of Palestinian people killed in 2023 before Oct. 7, and more fundamentally, the fact that Israel has been keeping 2.4M people in a high-tech concentration camp for the last two decades.
The atrocity claims against Hamas from Oct. 7 have some serious evidentiary issues at this point, even including some unknown number of the civilian deaths being attributable to the IDF (literally firing at, shelling and bombing Israeli citizens - though to be clear, there is video of Hamas shooting civilians as well). You compare this to the inhuman genocide being levied against Palestinians now - food, water, electricity, fuel, medicine being cut off for 5 weeks at this point, likely upwards of 20,000 civilians killed, at least half of the buildings in Gaza damaged or destroyed, attacks on hospitals, schools, refugee camps, ambulances, journalists, aid workers, without legitimate substantiation of their repurposing for military purposes - these are crimes against humanity. There is no equivalence here.
Hamas shouldn't be even compared to Israel. Hamas is a fucked up religious/fascist terrorist organization, whereas Israel is one of the happiest and modern western countries in the world. In no way can it be said that Hamas is even on the same scale when talking about evil.
How is Isreal not also a "fucked up religious/fascist terrorist organization"?
You describe Isreal as happy and modern as some kind of defense, but having overwhelming military superiorty over neighbors, taking their land, and having extremely close ties with modernized western countries would cause that.
How exactly is Isreal not religious (state religion is Judaism). How is it not terroristic (you kill one of their citizens they kill 10 of your citizens and take your land)? How is it not fascist when Gaza is literally a concentration camp for 2 million people? Two wrongs don't make a right, and having bigger guns certainly doesn't make them righteous.
I wonder if the fact they aren't muslim or as brown makes them better to you?
They didn't start that way. They built that capability out of very real necessity, coming many times pretty close to annihilation.
By internationally agreed decisions, and after winning wars, I suppose?
Yes, that's a good idea. Every country should do that.
State religion is perhaps an alien concept for Americans (which I guesstimate you are), but it's a pretty normal thing in Europe. It doesn't say much about religiousity, although clearly Israel has more crazy in that department than Europe, but also quite a lot less than typical muslim countries.
As for Israel, the largest religious group (33% in 2016) is "Judaism/Hiloni", which is essentially a secularist/nonobserving version of Judaism. The actual number of secularists might be even actually higher.
Terrorism isn't defined by numbers. It's defined by tactics and intentions.
It's literally not a concentration camp for 2 million people. You need to look up concentration camps.
Color has nothing do with it. Islamistic terrorism is a significant enemy of human civilization, however. That indeed does make them better for me.
Out of 27 countries, only three have official religions and they're pretty small. Don't talk shit out of your ass maybe?
Where did you grab that bullshit data from, ChatGPT? I live in a EU country that has an official state religion, and it's none of those three countries. Or is there some semantic thing going on here? Is it not an official state religion even though it's directly funded by the government, and government officials attend official religious events regularly?
Right back at you, buddy.
Lmao
The PA has power in the west bank, but not in Gaza (where Hamas is in charge). They're not a very effective government, but they don't seem to have genocidal intent either.
Do we really need to argue which murderers are slightly less murdery?
The people in charge on both sides are doing their people a disservice by killing a shit load of people which in turn leads to the other side killing even more people.
Except Israel is a country that wants to live in peace and Hamas has IT IN THEIR FUCKING CHARTER that they want to kill all Jews.
And when Hamas actually acts on their charter, the whole world goes shocked-Pikachu-face and condemns Israel for self defense and not agreeing to just be killed
The current charter says they would accept the 1969 borders.
No. Hamas' charter was written at a time when Israel was committing atrocities in Palestine. It was written in anger by about half a dozen people. Noam Chomsky explains this pretty well. The original charter is basically irrevelent and has basically been disavowed by Hamas.
Listen to what Chomsky has to say on the matter. If you can't find it, I'll see later.
If you listen to what Sam Harris has to say on the matter, then it's a deal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFBm8nQ2aBo
He's a neocon IDW liar. And benign-seeming racist. It would literally waste my time. No thank you.
Yeah, thus I will also not waste any more of my time with Noam Chomsky. I clearly won in this exchange, so thank you for that.
Congratulations.
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"living in peace" is not invading someone's land, taking their homes, slaughtering them, and putting them in a concentration camp for decades while killing kids when they retaliate.
You mean returning to the homeland after the Holocaust to a country as per UN resolutions , self-defense from terrorism in civilian areas (like suicide bombers and rockets into cities), and unilaterally disengaging from the Gaza Strip in 2005 while giving millions of dollars to a corrupt system that embezzled most of what wasn't used to build weapons and terrorism infrastructure and teach children to love death and murdering Jews in their beds like they did on October 7th
Have you read it? It doesn't say that.
Wow you literally went so "whataboutist" that you actually say "what about" in your sentence.