this post was submitted on 09 Sep 2023
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"Hot water"? They seem pretty content about the breakthrough.
Man, US penalizing foreign breakthroughs is pathetic.
You don‘t get it. Huawei and the CCP made some propaganda about how the sanctions totally don‘t work and claimed they were able to produce a chip that is 5 years behind. It is however more likely it was a big bluff and they didn’t produce it themselves. So their plan of saying „Your sanctions only force us to innovate and will hurt you in the end so you might aswell lift them“ completely backfired. The US saw their propaganda and probably judt thought the sanctions weren‘t hard enough if China keeps getting chips supplied to them. Hot water is a nice euphemism for what China is in right now.
Where do you get that from? How do you know the chip is 5 years behind? In the article it says that people were surprised how advanced it is. Genuinely curious
The chip design is top notch. The manufacturing is 3 generations behind. Its manufactured in 7nm. Current state of the art is 3nm. So more like 3–4 years and not 5, but still behind.
We can't say anything for certain though, since besides the manufacturing width, yields are important too. If they manage 7nm in a high yield its a completely different story than 7nm with a low yield. In a capitalist system no one would go 7nm with a low yield, but in Chinas system economical viability isn't a priority.
The real thing that matters is if they reach "good enough". 7nm/5nm/3nm is a useful technical milestone, and a measure of the quality of their tooling, but at the end of the day, the question is if they can make parts that fulfills a real product need without foreign dependencies.
Size is not everything-- don't forget when Intel stumbled on 10nm repeatedly, yet they were still printing money with 14nm+++++ because the process was "good enough" to deliver a chip people wanted.
I also have to wonder if the music is going to slow down for some of the IC industry soon. Yeah, we can feed every transistor that can be fabbed into AI/ML, but flagship smartphones are getting both expensive and ridiculous. Are enough people buying a $1500 phone, whose main feature is that it folds into an origami crane, that it can drive new process nodes? Or will a mature 7nm design provide enough performance and battery life for 90% of customers? What's the current killer app for more than a $200 phone? Maybe the camera, but image sensors have completely different manufacturing constraints.
I am not sure if it is that simple. Their process is using DUV and I assume a ASML lithograpy machine they got from somewhere. The next big step and what the current leading edge uses is EUV, so a different technique.
Unless they get their hands on one of those machines, which I assume will be prevented at all costs through sanctions, they'd have to reengineer that themselves. Something they havent done even for this 7nm lithograpy machine. EUV was decades in the making with an insane amount of research spending. Even with maybe not having to start from scratch this will be a tough nut to crack.
Unless they solve this problem they might push DUV a bit further, but then hit a brick wall. So I am not sure is your estimate how far they are behind is accurate in this sense.
That said, as someone else posted. 7nm is already plenty good for a lot of stuff.
Tech blogs and the like have long compared the specs and the conclusion was a difference of 3 generations to other high end phones which I was told is a 5 year gap. And if it really had been a fully domestic chip, developing it this quickly would have been quite the achievement actually. But parts from south korea were found so that was a short celebration.
Five seems like an exaggeration. I heard around three.
They act in their own interests, you make it sound like sanctions are the state of nature.
It's around the level of A12 from 2018. Now, Android phones from 3 years ago are also this level, but still
It is common practice in China itself. It is how they have dealt with pretty much everything so far. Why is it surprising the US follows suit?
I heard 3 generations behind which is about 5 years. They also used components from south korea against sanctions. It is not fully domestic and that should hardly be a surprise.
Man, I love the amount of copium here.
Anything that makes you better little man :)
Yes thats so ridiculous, god forbid anyone but north america and part of europe can even compete
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