this post was submitted on 20 Aug 2023
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[–] city_watch@hexbear.net 110 points 1 year ago (10 children)

Capitalism literally requires poverty to even function.

[–] KurtVonnegut@hexbear.net 41 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Lib - "Markets make everything cheaper, which is good."

Leftist - "But if there is a labor market, won't that make labor cheaper?"

Lib - "Yes, and that is good."

Leftist - "How is that good?"

Lib - "It leads to more profits."

Leftist - "But why is it good to have more profits?"

Lib - "Because a good country is when corporations make profits, and the more profits the corporations make, the gooder the country is."

[–] trailing9@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Leftist - “But if there is a labor market, won’t that make labor cheaper?”

A third person - "Not necessarily. If the demand for labor is bigger than the supply then markets make labor more expensive.

Leftist - " How is that possible? "

A third person - " There are various ways. Workers could start more cooperatives or invest their savings in new companies"

Leftist - "But why should I care about markets when it is easier to change the political system?"

A third person - "Is it easier?"

[–] AkariMizunashi@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This worked (to some extent, in the small cohort of industrialized capitalist countries as a sort of class collaborationist regime mediated by unions and a relatively activist government) for around 20-30 years after WWII but that's exactly what it is - something that will only work temporarily and for as long as it's tolerable to capitalists, because the political system is built by and for capitalists, and as soon as they see an opening they will use the state to beat back and discipline labor (in this case the neoliberal reaction that's continued since the 80s). Reformism is a circular dead end because politics and economics are inseparable, and political power just like economic power under capitalism is always (in the long term) gonna be stacked in favor of the people with capital - and those people aren't gonna give up their power without a fight.

That analysis is also looking at the whole labor market as a closed system within rich capitalist countries when the reality is that most of the breathing room that the middle class / unionized labor had during that period was built on top of capitalist super exploitation of labor in Africa, South America and Asia, and that sort of exported exploitation is always gonna be the case under a capitalist political system built around nation states.

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