this post was submitted on 20 Aug 2023
188 points (91.6% liked)

Star Trek

10608 readers
67 users here now

r/startrek: The Next Generation

Star Trek news and discussion. No slash fic...

Maybe a little slash fic.


New to Star Trek and wondering where to start?


Rules

1 Be constructiveAll posts/comments must be thoughtful and balanced.


2 Be welcomingIt is important that everyone from newbies to OG Trekkers feel welcome, no matter their gender, sexual orientation, religion or race.


3 Be truthfulAll posts/comments must be factually accurate and verifiable. We are not a place for gossip, rumors, or manipulative or misleading content.


4 Be niceIf a polite way cannot be found to phrase what it is you want to say, don't say anything at all. Insulting or disparaging remarks about any human being are expressly not allowed.


5 SpoilersUtilize the spoiler system for any and all spoilers relating to the most recently-aired episodes, as well as previews for upcoming episodes. There is no formal spoiler protection for episodes/films after they have been available for approximately one week.


6 Keep on-topicAll submissions must be directly about the Star Trek franchise (the shows, movies, books etc.). Off-topic discussions are welcome at c/quarks.


7 MetaQuestions and concerns about moderator actions should be brought forward via DM.


Upcoming Episodes

Date Episode Title
11-21 LD 5x06 "Of Gods and Angles"
11-28 LD 5x07 "Fully Dilated"
12-05 LD 5x08 "Upper Decks"
12-12 LD 5x09 "Fissue Quest"
12-19 LD 5x10 "The New Next Generation"

Episode Discussion Archive


In Production

Strange New Worlds (2025)

Section 31 (2025-01-24)

Starfleet Academy (TBA)

In Development

Untitled comedy series


Wondering where to stream a series? Check here.


Allied Discord Server


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

I found this after reading and responding to this post here about early Trek fans' prejudicial negative reaction to TNG. One of my responses (see here) was to point out that any fans of the progressiveness of Trek ought to have been mindful of the room for improvement over TOS, with female representation being an obvious issue. I posed the question "when did Trek start consistently passing the Bechdel test", thinking that it didn't start happening until Voyager, which those hard-line TOS fans would never have allowed to be made (along with TNG and DS9).

And of course, someone's done the analysis with graphs and everything! Awesome! (though note the links to tumblr posts at the bottom that are now behind a sign-in wall ... fun).

The results aren't surprising to me, generally. I expected TNG to do worse, but also thought it did a pretty good job with female guest characters so it might score higher than I thought. DS9, I expected to do better than TNG, which, to my surprise is only marginally true. But I didn't expect, from memory, how much of that is attributable to so many characters breaking off into (hetero, yes even Odo) couples. Voyager obviously does very well. And Enterprise ... well we shouldn't expect much of that ... honestly, for me, this cements the show's status as a blight on this era to lean so masculine straight after voyager.

And of course TOS shows its age, which, surely by 1987, good Trek fans should have been aware of?

Beyond that, I can't help but think of SNW here, which, IMO has a wonderful cast/crew that's well balanced and which I'd expect to be doing well on the Bechdel (as low and superficial bar as it is). But, as it starts to transition into a TOS prequel/reboot (as it is trending from S2 and as the show runners are indicating), all of those TOS characters are going to carry that 60s baggage with them. They'll all be men (Uhura is already there!) and all be special miracle workers. La'an's story has already been sidelined into a Kirk romance. Pelia the engineer was already somewhat substituted by Scotty the engineer. As it goes on (presuming it does), I think it could begin to look awkward once you squint.


EDIT: For those asking about new seasons/series ... I found this page/blog by the author of the parent blog post ... which provides data for some new Trek (Disco and Picard S3 and SNW S1 it seems).

Somewhat notably to me (though only one data point) ... the one episode of SNW S1 that (clearly) fails the test is the one with Kirk in it.

In a similar vein though, while Disco generally does well (best of all Trek so far it seems), the author notes that Season two had the most episodes that were close to the line, because Michael’s arc was so intertwined with her search for her brother, Spock. That is, the more new Trek leans into TOS nostalgia, the worse this gets.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] teft@startrek.website 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Not even one episode of season 1 TOS passed it. For shame. What were the 60s thinking?

Edit: /s by the way. I'm aware of the culture in the 60s.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean, it was another time. Their first pilot had number one, and that didn't fly. But that's the point, it was another time, and staying stuck in that time will always have drawbacks. As the article points out, the TOS Kelvin timeline reboots don't do well on the bechdel at all, and it's not a coincidence. If SNW heads toward more TOS prequel/reboot territory, you'll probably see it in bechdel data like this.

[–] pjhenry1216@kbin.social 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The first pilot literally had them talking about how weird it is to have a woman on the bridge.

[–] StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That was likely added to quell reactions to a woman as a first officer. But the Network had notes even so on how negatively test audiences reacted to Majel Barrett’s Number One.

Roddenberry tried another tack with blonde, beehived, Whitney in a miniskirt as Yeoman Janice Rand. She was supposed to be a woman main character but even that was too much for the executives and she was written out by the end of the first season.

[–] someguy3@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A yeoman is an odd position to write into a series.

[–] StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It’s one of the most senior NCO roles, and one that interacts regularly with a captain. It shouldn’t have been portrayed as a secretary.

Roddenberry was told he couldn’t have both an alien (Spock) and a woman as a first officer.

[–] teft@startrek.website 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It shouldn’t have been portrayed as a secretary.

That's exactly what a yeoman does on a modern naval ship.

From wikipedia:

In the modern Navy, a yeoman is an enlisted service member who performs administrative and clerical work.

[–] StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

That’s understating the role.

Administration does not equal secretary, except in the old British usage where the Secretary to the Prime Minister is what’s now called a Chief of Staff.

A yeoman is one of the most senior NCOs, responsible for communication with command and the admiralty, also responsible for performance assessments of all the enlisted ranks and more junior NCOs.

[–] teft@startrek.website 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Yeoman can rate from E-1 to E-9 so I'm not sure why you think they are only senior NCOs.

This is directly from a naval site:

General Description

Yeoman perform administrative and clerical work. They receive visitors, answer telephone calls and sort incoming mail. They type, organize files and operate modern office equipment such as word processing computers and copying machines.

What They Do

The duties performed by YNs include:

Preparing, typing and routing correspondence and reports

Organizing and maintaining files

Receiving office visits and handling telephone communications

Operating personal computers, word processing, duplicating, audio-recording and other office machines

Performing office personnel administration

Maintaining records and official publications

Performing administrative functions for legal proceedings

Serving as office managers

Performing other various clerical and administrative duties

That's a secretary, or more properly today an administrative assistant.

[–] StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The level would be relative to the officer they are supporting. On a ship with a captain who was a full captain, they would be a senior NCO.

Not to mention that the ranks in the 1960s were a bit different.

[–] teft@startrek.website 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Their position would increase as they increased in rank but they are still just secretaries, even at the highest level.

On a ship with a captain who was a full captain, they would be a senior NCO.

This is false. In the documentary Carrier (2008) which follows the USS Nimitz on a deployment in the gulf they follow a yeoman, Shaneka McReed for some of it. She is promoted during the episode to E-4, Yeoman Petty Officer 3rd Class. She was a yeoman who served on the bridge of the carrier. (I just recently watched this which is why I thought you were incorrect on your description).

I don't know about rank changing since the 60s other than in 2016 they no longer referred to sailors by their ratings, only their rank.

[–] StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It’s tricky to know because technology has changed the nature of these jobs significantly, and Star Trek has tended to map to roles as they are, despite projecting further technology.

In the 60s, 70s & 80s, a Yeoman would have held the encryption keys and would have been responsible for interactions with command. (The Comms officer would have had communications engineering and codes, but not necessarily access to the highest command codes.)

Likewise, responsibility for personnel assessment and promotion recommendations among ratings was a senior NCO responsibility that interlinked with the responsibilities of the XO.

It’s easy to portray a lot of these jobs as ‘merely clerical’ and it can be a kind of erasure of the people of colour and women who were in these ratings.

It brings to mind the work of the WW2 Wrens who did all the naval gaming in the UK and in Halifax, modeling, innovating and teaching tactics to UK and allied navies, but who got no credit. Or the women ‘computers’ and code breakers at Bletchley. Their commanding officers got all the credit and they were erased.

[–] teft@startrek.website 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oh I'm not trying to diminish them, I actually think the administrative assistants and secretaries of the world do a million times more than the executives they support. Yeoman Rand probably does a ton of behind the scenes shit that keeps the ship running but on paper yeomen are assistants. They aren't the decision makers even when they are assigned to a captain or XO. The decision maker would be the Command Master Chief. He works hand in hand with the command team and does a lot of administrative stuff too but he is more of a leader whereas a yeoman is more of a supporter. There are many quirks about the military like this so I don't think it's weird she's on the bridge at all.

Understood. I suspect that Roddenberry was just trying to find a role for another woman after having such pushback on a Lieutenant Commander.

[–] someguy3@lemmy.ca -2 points 1 year ago

Kirk: "Rand, tell Scotty we need more power!"

vs

Kirk: "Scotty, we need more power!"

I know which one is more compelling.

[–] someguy3@lemmy.ca -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

A petty officer performing chiefly clerical duties in the US Navy.

Clerical duties don't make for exciting tv. It may be important in real life, but doesn't work for tv. [Insert joke about TPS report.]

[–] SunriseParabellum@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

TOS is peak "product of its time"

[–] teft@startrek.website 3 points 1 year ago

Oh absolutely. I should put a bold /s up there.

[–] letsgocrazy@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

That's a bit of a low-resolution phrase.

Of course it obviously was a product of it's time - but it did push the boundaries as far as it could, and had to fight for some basic scenes.

Unlike many other "products of their time" that didn't even try and move the needle for positive representation.