this post was submitted on 11 Aug 2023
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How many millions of civilians were murdered/killed/starved/driven from their homes/displaced by American and NATO led imperialist wars such as the bombing of Yugoslavia, the invasion of Afghanistan, the bombing of Libya, or Isr*el's genocidal occupation of Palestine, which is proudly supported by the US and NATO?
Fewer than Russia but you LOVE when Russia does it.
You honestly think less civilians were killed in all those things COMBINED than by Russia? Really? That's actually one of the most wild liberal claims I've ever seen, and thats saying something. You've lost attachment to reality.
Prove me wrong. If you can't, well of course you're a troll farm and you're part of the reason Russia has a reputation as the shitstain of the world.
You made the extraordinary claim. Your job to provide proof.
Also I'm an American communist from New England. One of the posts on my profile is about weird shit in the American Pie movies. Another recent one you can actually see is about Skyrim. Clearly troll farm shit. (I'd point out the idea that the Kremlin would bother to astroturf lemmy is INSANE, but that ones been falling on deaf ears because you all are so self important).
So I'm supposed to believe that a bunch of queers are simping for a dictatorship that murders queers?
Jesus I really doubt someone with Fae in their name is cishet but you used that word really slurishly.
I'm not. Looking at the Ukraine War with the nuance and knowledge of geopolitics it deserves isn't simping for Putin. I hate the Putin regime, especially what they do to their queer community. Its not like Ukraine is that much better on queer issues though?
My posting history goes back three years before federation. You'll find very few of my posts were about the Ukraine war.
I'm obviously queer af. And wtf about that was slur, and how could you be more bothered that someone used the word "queer" online more than a dictatorship that genocides queer people.
Unless you hate queer people, and hate being reminded they exist, and you want them to be removed from the world.
What nuance? No one from Hexbear has posted anything nuanced, it's all whataboutism of every other country that isn't Russia.
Y'all are literally more offended than anyone would criticize Russia than anything else.
I am a bisexual man. I have two girlfriends and they are both trans. I have a trans cousin. And a litany of trans and otherwise queer friends, on and offline. The way you used queer in your post came off slurish whether you intended it or not. If you want to do liberalism solipism and not believe I could genuinely hold these positions as an american queer go ahead, but I do. I can both hate the Vladimir Putin and the Russian government for what they are doing to their queer population (I am actually very upset and offended by that, much more than your slightly slurish use of the word queer), and recognize that America and NATO do more evil in the world in general than Russia could ever dream of. And that if I want to advance the cause of Communism, the current imperialist world order lead by the United States needs to fall first.
People have posted about the history of the War in Donbass, Ukraine's Nazi problems that the western media was admitting to right up until the invasion, and NATO encirclement plenty.
I would like to remind you that this is a thread about the Ukraine war. In other threads, believe it or not, we talk about other subjects.
hey are you and your two girlfriends single
I mean, one has like 20 other partners and the other one has one other partner so its an open polycule I guess lol, though I dont know any of the first's other partners. I do exchange Star Trek memes with the second girlfriend's girlfriend though.
Russia is more imperialist and more capitalist than the US.
Communism, like actual communism? Sounds great to me.
Russia? Is just as close to communism as the sun is to being cold.
Russia is not even close to being more imperialist than the US. I'd describe its actions in Ukraine as revanchist, not imperialist, and to be clear thats still bad. But United States does like 1000% the amount of neoimperalist garbage throughout the global south and thats well documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change
And that article is just the overt stuff, not the just regular old economic plundering of the global south they get up to usually.
More capitalist? Eh, I guess that can be argued. Both countries are run by oligarchs though. The USA is just more polite about it.
We don't disagree on this and I never stated otherwise. You have very clearly strawmanned me.
I put forth the idea that an oligarchy where the oligarchs are somewhat nerfed by infighting and changing of power between presidents is marginally better than an oligarchy with a dictator that cannot be removed.
American oligarchs are barely infighting. At the end of the day, the capitalist class has class solidarity, even if they quibble over abortion. There's a communist term (you say you are fine with actual communism, so you shouldnt have a problem with it since its a term Marx invented) called "dictatorship of the bourgeoise". Thats what Americans live under. The difference between that and a more overt autocracy is basically politeness about it. I won't deny that the United States has better queer rights than Russia (for now... I'm not confident in how long that will continue to be the case, I am deathly afraid the United States is quickly sliding towards fascism) and I would rather live here than Russia as a bi man. On that we don't disagree. We disagree on the geopolitical implications of the War in Ukraine. We do not disagree that Russia's government is bad, or even that Putin did a bad thing by invading.
What's your goal then anyway?
Any time in history a dictator starts invading, it's never just one country. We literally just went through this with Hitler in WW2. Germany is just reuniting culturally similar people, and everyone looks the other way, until he isn't.
This isn't about just Ukraine. It's not the first or the last. Russia would happily conquer US territory if there was no one to stop him.
So what's your goal? Disband NATO, let the US fall?
Let China and Russia carve up the US between them?
Despite every valid criticism of the US, and they are endless, you admit it's better to live as a citizen of the US than under a homophobic dictator.
My goal is creating the material conditions for revolution, and for that to happen the global south needs to come out from under the imperialist heel of the United States and its allies. It is a completely necessary step towards communism. That does not mean I think that Russia is communist like you said before. It just means that I think the US and allies are the current greatest evil in the world and I support things that weaken its power. That is pretty much the ML view of geopolitics at its root. If the US and Russia were both equally or near-equally bad imperialist powers doing equally bad things around the world, I would feel differently, but they aren't.
And I don't think there's any evidence that Putin is an insane megalomaniac to that extent. With Hitler there was evidence, it was always part of his ideology. I definitely think its its wild to imply that he has ambitions conquering the US or anything like that. Thats just not based in reality. Based on the evidence I've seen, and the peace deals he has offered only to be vetoed by NATO, I dont even think he seeks to reconquer all of Ukraine. I think his invasion, as much as I disagree with it, was mostly motivated by Donbass and NATO encirclement.
See, this is where you are completely out of touch of reality.
There's no evidence that Putin ISNT another wannabe Hitler. He's a dictator that can't be removed because he kills off all his political rivals. He's a liar who will pretend his invasion force is just running training exercises. He's threatened to use nukes, even though it's basically just mutually assured destruction.
And sure, Putin now wants "peace" because this war is insanely costly for him, everyone expected Ukraine to fall within days. Putin was supposed to conquer Ukraine before NATO could act. So Putin has no choice but peace if he wants to keep the 1/5 he's already conquered. Pleace, that is, until he starts running training exercises along the border again.
The real question of the day for y'all is, why is Russia conquering neighboring countries instead of making alliances? Why didn't Russia and Ukraine start a Eastern European Treaty Organization? A treaty would have massively reinforced Russia against NATO without gutting it's military. I don't see any benefit for Russia turning it into a way except for Putin being an expansion thirsty megalomaniac.
Show me the numbers, liberal. Post your source for that wild claim.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-war-already-with-up-354000-casualties-likely-drag-us-documents-2023-04-12/
Ukraine war ALONE is over 350,000. The one that Russia started after telling lies about training operations.
Russia is a murder and lie machine. Russia's primary exports are murder, lies, and nuclear terrorism.
who has Russia nuked
You're counting both sides but then blaming only Russia lol? Hard to take that seriously. Give us Ukrainian deaths, preferably only civilian deaths, and then we might have a conversation.
That would be the United States actually. Especially the last thing since Russia has never nuked anyone and America has.
You know how US Republicans like to claim that they are the party that ended slavery?
If you have to dig way back in history to make your point relevant and ignore everything that's happening in the present day, your point is stupid and your mental stretching looks ridiculous.
I don't have to dig back very far to find US atrocities actually. The Afgan war ended two years ago and was one of the counterpoints brought up to you.
But the idea that the United States is acutally better today than when they dropped the bombs is rich. At least we were nominally fighting fascism then.
ETA: OK so if by "nuclear terrorism" you mean... the mere act of having nukes and the implicit threat of using them. America has nukes too. Today. In 2023. Or is it only nuclear terrorism when bad country has nukes?
Putin has threatened nukes. Biden has not threatened nukes.
America was fighting a fascist enemy, not against fascism itself. America practically invented fascism.
There are no limit of ways to criticize the US, but it's slowly, marginally getting better. The US is slowly progressing.
Russia is getting worse.
You dont need to say the words "I threaten nukes!" to threaten nukes. Thats the whole point of mutually assured destruction. Merely having nukes is nuclear terrorism.
Well we agree on something lol.
The US is demonstrably getting worse on trans rights, an issue I assume'd you'd care about.
And its definitely not gotten better about imperialist power projection overseas.
Very much and on the STATE LEVEL, some states are taking right away. On a national level, trans people have never been so socially accepted before, and it shows. Trans people being out has never been higher.
Now in your precious Russia, your life is at risk just for being under suspicion of being gay, much less being publically trans.
State level for now . And those states are like half of them. The GOP is gearing up for a genocide, whether they'll be successful I don't know. But all my trans friends in the US are scared, including those living in Blue states. All of them wish they could get the fuck out of this country.
Stop this. Its a ridiculous strawman and I have stated that it is not my opinion multiple times. Russia is a hellhole in many ways and its record on queer rights is one of them.
And go where? Russia?
Maybe you can disband NATO, and they won't have to leave, you can just bring Russia here instead.
And while Putin is carting them off to camps, they can say, "well at least it's not the GOP."
No, they don't want to go to Russia. And you knew that, you're just being annoying and obstinate.
Your accuse us of obsession over Russia but you're clearly obsessively paranoid about them if you think NATO disbandment would lead to Russia conquering the United States.
Then go where?
If they want to get the fuck out of the US, where do they want to go and why aren't they going there?
My favorite part is saying that Russia exports "Nuclear terrorism" when saying that Russia is worse than... the only country that has dropped a nuclear bomb.
Yeah, that really was the cherry on top of the
Sunday.
You ignorant gnome. We hate Russsia more than you. Russia is the liberal democratic nation built by the US from the corpse of our comunist forebears. I'd ask if you ever read a history book but your Midwest tag proves the only ones you got were written by Haliburton so it isn't your fault you are the way you are. If I wver visit your region I must try to trap you I in a circle of salt and force you to actually read some theory.
Russia is not liberal or democratic. It is a corrupt capitalist oligarchy/dictatorship with limited human rights. It was built by the US from the corpse of the USSR.
Y'all claim to hate Russia but also spend a suspicious amount of time defending it.
It is exactly as liberal and democratic as america.
Absolutely not. America is more liberal and democratic, even if marginally. America has not had a single dictator in power for 2 decades and it's actually fairly okay to be gay in America.
I would 1000% rather live in the US than live in Russia.