this post was submitted on 07 Aug 2023
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@Ardubal @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis
Thanks for this. You have raised many interesting points and are obviously very knowledgeable.
I think #H2 may also be a read herring also. At the moment the cost of green hydrogen is so much higher than blue hydrogen, the cynic in me is wondering if this is just an excuse to rebrand fossil fuels
If my calculations about battery tech are correct we will have lots of #batteries very soon.
More than we would need for a few days
Very soon
@MattMastodon @Ardubal @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis
Batteries are great for short term storage (Hours to Days), but the further you are from the equator, the more you need seasonal storage.
Hydrogen possibly fits part of that, if it is produced by electrolysis when wind / solar are in surplus.
Problems are:
how to store it, it leaks through most storage containers, requires vast amounts of energy to liquify and
The round trip from Electricity via H2 to Electricity is very inefficient.
@MattMastodon @Ardubal @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis
A thought,
I wouldn't completely write methane, LPG , or any other petrochemical, off yet, as a seasonal storage medium.
They are a lot easier to store and transport than H2.
They can be produced from green H2 + captured CO2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanation
We have a lot of existing infrastructure which can use them.
That is of course If we can produce enough surplus Solar / Wind to make them.
https://www.power-technology.com/features/eth-zurich-fuel-air-and-sunlight/
@MattMastodon @BrianSmith950 @Ardubal @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis There seems to be a lot of uncertainty around the cost of green hydrogen. The first three Google links differ wildly on it.
Natural gas has certainly increased the cost of grey hydrogen lately.
If the problem is the cost of electricity, that's easily solved by producing mainly when there's a surplus of green electricity. However, if the cost is the capital outlay, that's harder. Which is it?
Of course, we can and must require by law that all new capacity be green. Current incentives also include blue, but there is more green hydrogen actually being built.
@MattMastodon @BrianSmith950 @Ardubal @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis The problem with using it for long term electricity storage is leaks, of course. It's a weak greenhouse gas.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/17/pollutionwatch-hydrogen-power-climate-leaks
@MattMastodon @BrianSmith950 @Ardubal @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis IIRC most studies show that long term storage is only a few percent of total energy, certainly well under 10%. So it is a viable option - if you can get past leaks, and other problems (e.g. the temptation to burn it, producing NOx pollution). And can store vast amounts of energy relatively cheaply.
Nuclear is of course a viable option. There are a few others e.g. iron-air batteries, or just building a lot more renewables than we need. Lithium is only helpful for short to medium term storage.
Re synthetic fuels, so far extremely expensive and limited scale. Might possibly be used for aviation in the long run (but it's easier just to fly less, and we still need a reliable, safe solution to the contrails problem). Maybe shipping too (possibly as ammonia).
@MattMastodon @BrianSmith950 @Ardubal @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis Here's a study from a while back about how much storage is actually needed, using the example of Australia. You can get to ~98% with relatively little storage. For the remaining 2%, you need to think about more difficult options - demand side measures, nuclear, long term storage, etc.
https://reneweconomy.com.au/a-near-100-per-cent-renewables-grid-is-well-within-reach-and-with-little-storage/
@MattMastodon @BrianSmith950 @Ardubal @Pampa @AlexisFR @Wirrvogel @Sodis There is commercial production of green hydrogen today, but it requires a subsidy. The cost of grey hydrogen does not reflect the damage it causes.
That's exactly what it is. Hydrogen power plants are just trojan horses for methane. Since they can burn one as well as the other, but CH4 is much more economically convenient.