this post was submitted on 06 Jun 2023
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Relaxed section for discussion and debate that doesn't fit anywhere else. Whether it's advice, how your week is going, a link that's at the back of your mind, or something like that, it can likely go here.


Subcommunities on Beehaw:


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https://old.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/140vbey/launching_rlemmymigration_what_communities_have/jmxnzsh/?context=1

Look at here and the people who complain about it being too hard to figure out are the ones complaining about "I can't use muh slurs, this is awful."

"The left of today is very much in favour of censorship to avoid “harm.” This makes those of us in the middle very wary of signing up to any partisan media." /u/decidedlysticky23

/u/misshapensteed claims he isn't far right, but explictly only posts on PoliticalCompassMemes and TheLeftCantMeme and KotakuInAction.

If they are too stupid to figure out we know they're lying, they're too stupid to figure out lemmy.

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[–] CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I'm glad that Beehaw doesn't do it, but the other instances shouldn't be federating the Tankies.

Authoritarian, genocide-denial, Stalin-praising politics have no place on the left.

[–] vrojak@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

That is the one thing that still makes me unsure of whether I should fully support Lemmy or not. I know how the federation works and that those communities can be easily excluded, but what is off to me is that the two main devs of Lemmy itself (and the Android app) are themselves tankies.

[–] Cube6392@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There was some chatter somewhere about beehaw.org assessing kbin as an alternative. I don't think kbin is ready for primetime in that way yet, but I would be supportive of Lemmy instances converting when the time is right given that the two main developers of Lemmy are the two main admins of the tankiest instance

[–] vrojak@feddit.de 1 points 1 year ago

I heard of kbin too and on paper, it looks like a viable alternative. But as you've said, Lemmy is (as of now) more robust, and getting Reddit users to switch to something even less mature seems like a hard sell. With the Reddit blackout coming soon, Lemmy is just in the prime position to grab all the refugees, most of which will probably never find out about the main devs.

[–] smartwater0897@lemmy.one 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Even if that is true, it shouldn't bother you I think. You have to let people have their convictions. The alternative is The Ministry of Truth. :)

[–] CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

Fascists and red-Fascists have no place in discourse. In part because their engagement is never good-faith.

[–] vrojak@feddit.de 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I would generally agree, but tolerance should not extend to the point of accepting genocide denial and defense of clear-cut authoritarianism. See here for the general concept.

Tankies make the (imo) correct assumption that the US (or the west in general) engages in imperialism and is responsible for a huge amount of problems in the world, in addition to general atrocities, but then somehow decide the everything and everyone that opposes the US is perfectly fine and does no wrong. It's baffeling.

[–] smartwater0897@lemmy.one 1 points 1 year ago

Sure but look at some of the discussions in the US...they are also completely convinced that the US is the best country in the world.

It's something with certain human beings it seems, that makes them want to join a team and defend it, no matter if it has flaws and is obviously incorrect at times. They connect their self confidence to their country I guess.

[–] Mummelpuffin@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

Regardless, the whole point of a platform like Lemmy is that it's creators have no control over it, by design.

[–] crisisingot@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah I've been going back and forth between this one and lemmy.ml and a recent thread on Ukraine made really really appreciate that beehaw has that instance blocked

[–] Wigglet@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Personally I'm not sure I consider tankies leftists. Although communism is a leftists ideal, it's based on the premise of people being equal and deserving of basic needs. Tankies often embrace misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, and authoritarianism and deny or even support injustices against other humans. Not very leftist of them imo

[–] cyruseuros@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I get where you're coming from, but this feels like a no-true-scotsman kind of thing that both the left and right do to renounce and endorse their extremes as and when necessary to ensure they can always claim they were right from the beginning.

Things are what they are (including the results they produce), not what they ought to be. Whether that divergence happens because of orchestrated dog-whistles or poorly set up incentives is irrelevant.

Don't get me wrong, I have the same tendency and the above is more like a mantra rather than an ingrained belief for me. A good litmus test has always been "Can I extend this argument such that I'm never wrong?" If so, I'm probably wrong already.

[–] comfy@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

The term "Left" is nothing more than a team sport since the inception of the term in the 1800s. It's not a useful term, nor a consistent term, and we only really use it for convenience. It's not a meaningful model of classifying politics. That's why we should consider just saying what we mean: progressive? socialist? egalitarian?

Same with "right", of course.

[–] Kaldo@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have to say that I had a really rough whiplash when I saw what kind of communities the admins of lemmy have created and are maintaining (I guess that is what you mean by tankies). Absolutely shocked that this is the credo of people making this "open/free/not controlled by company" software. A company might be preferable at this point >.>

These 2 people are the ones we're supposed to put the faith into to maintain and develop the framework and architecture for all these potential sites? If we fund lemmy we fund them, if they give up then nobody else is probably going to take over, it sounds like a disaster just waiting to happen.

And okay, nice to hear that beehaw is blocking those communities but we're still federated with everything else there, if I'm understanding it correctly, and it's the same users that can easily cross between the instances? That's not very reassuring either.

[–] soulless@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Considering that Reddit's capitalist shenanigans is what brought redditors here, having socialist devs is not necessarily a bad thing.

You'd probably also be shocked at how many communists are strongly involved in FOSS development, and just how nice and great people they are on average.

In any case, don't worry too much about it, their software is open source so if they suddenly turn evil, a fork is enough to fix it.

[–] Lobstronomosity@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Socialism is not the same as what's going on here. Socialism means you believe in good for the common citizen, not denying reality and wishing death and destruction on peaceful people.

[–] animist@lemmy.one 1 points 1 year ago

Minor correction, socialism has one definition and one definition only: worker ownership of the means of production

[–] soulless@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago

While I have to admit that I've been frustrated by the tankies during my short stay on lemmy.ml, I don't think that's a fair representation of their views.

Most I believe seem frustrated by a western world that seem entirely too content in accepting a narrative heavily biased in favor of laissez-faire capitalism and right wing narratives, to the extent that it has blinded them to the cruelty of regimes in China and Russia.

I think that in order to foster a fruitful discussion here and avoid the trenches that often form between differing political views on the web, trying first to understand and empathise with an opposing view is crucial. It's been a good heuristic for me at least, except in those cases where there is zero intention of even trying to understand each other (where just ignoring works well).

[–] lemillionsocks@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah it's not like theyre uncomfortable with socialism in general, this is like full on self identifying STALINISM. That's something that comes with it's own mess of human rights totalitarian crap, and pointing out that the US has also done terrible things(and oh boy has it) doesnt make that any better.

Like they arent the power to the people kind of socialists their logo is literally a tank.

[–] CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I consider myself a socialist.

But Stalinists and other authoritarians have essentially reactionary politics.

[–] Cube6392@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm anarchocommunist (though I often say anarchosocialist because of loaded term stuff), and I view all authoritarian stances as truly horrific. The big great huge tragedy with capitalism is that the people with capital control the state, and therefor have authority to harm the populace. Bolshevism does not do anything to fix the tragic part. Vanguard party politics consistently devolves into authoritarian regimes, and those authoritarian regimes then harm the people.

The standard by which we should be judging any political or ethical framework is the degree of agency the most disenfranchised person in the system has.

[–] GuyDudeman@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Fellow AnCom here. Say it loud and say it proud.

[–] CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

China is also an Imperialist state, with borders and a realpolitik firmly grounded in ethnic supremacy.

Worth repeating that line I think. That China is an Imperialist ethnostate, because it is very true.

[–] Thedogspaw@midwest.social 1 points 1 year ago

There is no doubt china is an imperialist state that views itself has having a manifest destiny like right to rule the world

[–] Phantom_Engineer@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The beauty of it is that we don't necessarily have to use lemmy.ml at all. Beehaw and Sopuli.xyz, two of the largest instances outside of lemmy.ml and the tankies, don't federate with the tankies. It some ways it's a good thing, as it encourages people to branch out instead of clustering around a "main" instance.

[–] CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Do you know if the lemmy.ml owners run join-lemmy?

[–] russjr08@outpost.zeuslink.net 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So considering that those individuals are supportive of genocide- not even denying, but supportive- That is a fairly big problem for the ecosystem.

Presumably, with their extremist and toxic views, they will be acting to keep criticism of their favorite Imperial states (say, China) from being too prominent.

[–] GuyDudeman@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

They've actually been quite tolerant of all of us, to be honest. I don't think they have any desire to be exclusive to tankies.