this post was submitted on 23 Jul 2023
546 points (86.9% liked)

Showerthoughts

29773 readers
500 users here now

A "Showerthought" is a simple term used to describe the thoughts that pop into your head while you're doing everyday things like taking a shower, driving, or just daydreaming. A showerthought should offer a unique perspective on an ordinary part of life.

Rules

  1. All posts must be showerthoughts
  2. The entire showerthought must be in the title
  3. Avoid politics
    • 3.1) NEW RULE as of 5 Nov 2024, trying it out
    • 3.2) Political posts often end up being circle jerks (not offering unique perspective) or enflaming (too much work for mods).
    • 3.3) Try c/politicaldiscussion, volunteer as a mod here, or start your own community.
  4. Posts must be original/unique
  5. Adhere to Lemmy's Code of Conduct

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

I can't really think of a reason for that as Reddit is hated somewhat equally by "both" sides of the spectrum. It's just something I find interesting.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] YourHuckleberry@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago (38 children)

Hot take: you shouldn't subscribe to an ism.

You know what my political affiliation is? I'm an engineer. You want to solve a problem, you break it apart and fix the broken parts.

Abortion? Sure.

What's the problem? Women are pregnant and they don't wanna be.

Well how'd they get pregnant? They had unprotected sex, or they got raped(including all kinds here). Teach people how to use birth control and make it easy to get. Teach men about consent. Fund sex crime policing.

That takes care of the input side of the equation. What's next? Oh yeah, they don't wanna be pregnant. Why not? Because it could kill them, or wreck thier bodies. OK, well let's fund research and support for maternal mortality issues (including post-partum). If a pregnancy is likely to kill a woman (like double the normal mortality rate) she should be allowed to abort, even if she's not in immediate danger. You can't force somebody to risk their life.

Any other reasons? Because the fetus is severely deformed and will die in pain if allowed to make it to full term? Abortion, no question. Honestly any other position on this one is fucked up. I'm sure of very little when it comes to God, but I'm sure it doesn't want preventable suffering.

What else? Families can't afford a kid? Free high quality childcare for everyone. Free healthcare for kids and post-partum mothers (probably for everyone but that's a different topic).

What about adoption? Well, as they say, adoption is the answer to a different question. Just to cover all cases though, let's fund high-quality adoption services, including counseling for the birth mother for as long as she needs.

How do we pay for it all? Taxes. Taxes are good for society. Shut the fuck up and pony up your fair share. If you use our stuff, eat our food, drink our clean water, taxes are what you owe.

These are just off the top of my head. The real answers are probably way more complicated, but it's going to take work to figure it all out. This is how you fix a problem though. Lots of hard work to understand the whole thing, soup to nuts, and then you fix it all.

Does that make me a leftist?

[–] kescusay@lemmy.world 48 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You just described steps that would actually reduce abortion by quite a lot, without making it illegal at all. The sex ed and contraception stuff is basically exactly how it's done in other western countries that don't have nearly the issue with teen pregnancies we do. What you're proposing is practical and effective.

And in the eyes of the MAGA crowd, you're not just a leftist, you're a baby-murdering, Satan-worshipping communist America-hater.

[–] A2PKXG@feddit.de 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm European. Do you think the American teens getting pregnant are actually surprised? That just seems inconceivable (pun not intended) to me.

[–] kescusay@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Without comprehensive sex ed? Yeah. I think they are. A lot of them believe myths about getting pregnant, and no one - either at school or in their religiously restrictive homes - will tell them the truth. So they find out the hard way.

[–] dragonflyteaparty@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You are detailing exactly what would reduce abortion. Republicans/conservatives would probably call you a socialist (while meaning it negatively) and say that you are encouraging teens to have sex by offering contraceptives and encouraging people to be lazy by offering free child care. These are the things that would really help. It feels to me like they don't care about actually helping, just punishing people and creating wedge issues.

[–] SuddenDownpour@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There's nothing wrong with what you're saying on a vacuum. The problem is deciding what is actually a problem, and once it's been decided, which one solution out of many possible ones we're actually going to pick.

Is unequality a problem? If it is, up to which degree? Is it a problem that the richest person has four times as much wealth as the poorest person? Is it a problem that the richest person has x100000 times as much wealth as the poorest person? Are we going to solve that through redistribution? Through better public, accessible education? By empowering worker unions? By socializing the means of production in order to prevent capital accumulation?

Once you're perfectly aware of what values you're defending, you can find the most efficient way to let society advance forward according to them. But since not everyone shares the same values, even if everyone was perfectly rational and had access to all information, different people would still defend different solutions. Of course, people's values evolve all the time and everyone is irrational up to some degree, even if we put effort into perfecting our epistemology and use the scientific method to approach as many issues as possibles (which we should nonetheless do), so even that ideal state of things is very, very far away.

[–] YourHuckleberry@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Apply the scientifc method. Look at places and times with wide economic disparity. Were/are those good stable places with happy healthy populations, or was it bad. If you decide it's a problem based on evidence, then look at solutions. If you don't have examples, try things out and record the data. What worked and what didn't. Don't let your values bias you. I think that welath inequality is a problem, but I'm willing to listen to thoroughly researched, peer reviewed, data backed conclusions.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Piers@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

The problem is deciding what is actually a problem, and once it’s been decided, which one solution out of many possible ones we’re actually going to pick.

I find that often once both sides have decided that there is a problem and it should be solved but start arguing about mutually exclusive solutions to that issue, one of the sides (and it does switch) is focusing on addressing the output of the problem and the other is focusing on addressing the cause of the problem!

"Ow, my foot hurts!"

Side A: "let's give you some painkillers to stop the pain" Side B: "forget about the painkillers, stop standing on their feet!" Side A: "I've already stood on their foot, there's nothing I can do to undo it. Do you want me to rewind time or something? Why don't you care about treating their pain‽" Side B: "If you keep standing on their feet they're going to stay in pain no matter what!" Side A: "how can I get this person painkillers for their pain without standing here? Why are you so blind to this person's suffering‽"

Etc etc forever while we achieve nothing and let everything turn to rust and ashes to the backdrop of everyone silently screaming inside of their heads.

Not sure I agree that an engineering mindset wouldn't be an improvement on that tbh. There really aren't normally multiple equally valid solutions to big problems. Just people with a more or less complete understanding of the issue arguing that their understanding and subsequent solution is the best rather that just fucking listening and thinking competently to arrive at the right answers together.

[–] ohlaph@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Problem solving should be every politician's goal. The only difference is what "problems" they are trying to solve. That's what separates left and right, the problems. And frankly, they are radically different problems to the same situations.

[–] Skanky@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Would you mind clarifying your standpoint on what should be done in case a woman is raped and becomes pregnant? You kind of glossed over that part of it. I understand that you want to prevent the number of pregnancies due to rape, but what exactly do you propose when that happens? Same for pregnancies due to incest.

It seems you already know most of what will actually help this issue, and it does include social programs. Does this make you a leftist? No, it makes you a realist. That is, unless you ask this question to most conservatives who will instantly label you as one. How dare you actually suggest something progressive!

[–] YourHuckleberry@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

A person's body is their own. From the skin in, it's yours to do with as you please. You can't make somebody wreck their body or risk their lives to satisfy your morality. I'm willing to debate this issue with someone who has done everything I'm their power to mitigate the risk of unwanted pregnancy. If not, I assume they're just trying to control women's bodies in order to secure their place in heaven, because the rest of christianity is hard.

[–] Piers@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Does this make you a leftist? No, it makes you a realist. That is, unless you ask this question to most conservatives who will instantly label you as one.

Reality has a left-wing bias.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

In that case, as well as the medical one, abortion counts as self-defence.

Now you might be saying "but the baby isn't at fault, self-defence is only valid against the assailant" but, well:

Assume you and some other guy are kidnapped by a psychopath, who puts you two into a contraption that forces the both of you to either kill the other to survive, or both die after say half a day. Is morally and legally justified to kill that random stranger who did you no wrong to save your own life?

See it's much easier in that case where the stakes are higher and, yes, in any (sane) legal system self-defence is valid also against people who did you no wrong: You do not have to tolerate suffering an (any) injustice just because the assailant is being creative. If you want to convict someone of homicide in that case how about the rapist.

[–] PostmodernPythia@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Yes. That makes you a leftist. Center-leftist, but in this political climate…good enough.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] A2PKXG@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago

I like your thinking.

I think unwanted children are the worst. lets put aside that the family won't be happy. It's these children that will cause trouble, populate prisons. They'll be an absolute drag on society. It's not even they're fault. Growing up without love is tough

[–] CalvinCopyright@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Don't tell me what to do.

They don't care if you're a leftist or not, they care that you're telling them what to do, precisely because they don't want to be told what to do, even if it's good for them, because if they're being told what to do, it means they aren't in power, and they want power at any cost. In the pursuit of the 'right' people telling the 'wrong' people what to do, and in the pursuit of keeping the 'wrong' people from telling the 'right' people what to do, anything goes. Hypocrisy, lies, crime, election fraud, subverting courts, coups, false patriotism, false piety, terrorism, even outright murder... anything goes.

Know the enemy, spread the word to your friends and family (and maybe further).

[–] ConsciousLochNess@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Lol you just glaringly leave off the option of having an abortion for a woman who just plain old doesn't want to have a kid. If she just doesn't want to have a kid (no medical issue going on for either the mother or fetus), and it's been say, 3 months since inception, can she have an abortion? You seem to really only be mentioning abortion when it comes to threatening the life of the mother or if the fetus is deformed. What about just a purely elective abortion, less than 12 weeks let's say? Would you want to see that illegal?

Edit: Nevermind, read your response below to a similar question.

[–] YourHuckleberry@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

She doesn't want to be pregnant or she doesn't want to have a kid? Two different problems with two different solutions.

I think we should prevent as many abortions as we can, while preserving everyone's right to body autonomy.

How did your hypothetical woman get pregnant? In my hypothetical, ideal world that scenario should be exceedingly rare.

[–] morelikepinniped@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What is your answer to a scenario in which a woman using birth control properly in a loving monogamous relationship becomes pregnant when neither party wants a child? The most common form of birth control (the pill), when taken properly only has a 97% effective rate. Pair that with a second form of birth control (i.e. the pullout method) and it will go up but it will never be 100% effective.

[–] YourHuckleberry@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And she doesn't want to put the child up for adoption? That's valid. Pregnancy has long term negative health impacts. Morally, I'm not opposed to abortion. I know some people are. I feel like I'm unwilling to debate the morality while all the practical steps to mitigate the risk haven't been taken.

I would add, free, easily accessible sterilization should be the norm. I don't want more kids, so I got sterilized.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I feel like I’m unwilling to debate the morality while all the practical steps to mitigate the risk haven’t been taken.

That might actually be a very very good strategy in US politics. The "we can talk morality when you stopped being a bigot and support sex ed and child welfare" kind of line. Put the rabid conservatives on the moral defensive.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

You missed one thing: Some women just want to abort regardless, and also have all through history, including prehistory. All those policies you listed there are in place in Germany as the constitutional court ruled that the state has a duty to protect life (also the unborn) and thus has to take steps to minimise the number of abortions, and social means are to be preferred over prison sentences because a) more effective and b) proportionality, but: You don't catch every case with those social means.

Now, if you penalise abortions that fall through those cracks you get backstreet abortions -- which you have no control over. You can't convince people at the last moment, you can't drown them in flyers explaining all the social services they're going to receive and smother them with support. That's why at-will abortion in Germany is decriminalised if you're willing to sit through what's called pregnancy conflict counselling, there's no notes taken or result given in those you get a piece of paper that says that you were there, then there's a three-day cooldown and you can bring the notice to a doctor who now can perform the abortion legally. If you're poor, the state is going to cover the costs (not your health insurance because pregnancy is not an illness).

In a nutshell: For the state to be maximally effective at minimising the number of abortions it has to tolerate abortions being carried out legally, and even pay for them to be performed.

And this, btw, to many an American's surprise, comes from a rather firm "human dignity starts with insemination, the right to live starts with nidation as that's when nature decides to bring a particular life to fruit" type of doctrine. (The human dignity stuff comes into play e.g. during preimplantation diagnostics: You can be tossed out of the pool for carrying a genetic disease, but not for your sex, hair colour, or whatnot).

[–] Fazoo@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

We shall call in Huckleberryism. Subscribed!

[–] escaped_cruzader@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

You also just listed all the reasons that rape is allowed in most countries (rape, death risk, severe deformation, etc). You didn't touch on the "abort for any reason at any time" issue which is the flagship of leftist movement

You are not a leftist, just a centrist living in the US

[–] Urist@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Does that make me a leftist?

Though I assume this is but one part of your political convictions, I would say yes. That being said I think your hot take is wrong and suggest thinking about it this way: Theory and applications are two incredibly important components of any discipline, ranging from mathematics to politics. In this case the theoretical part means more or less ideology (or the isms you refer to) while applications are the more pragmatic approach of thinking implementations and effects. Both are important to navigate and propose solutions to ever evolving problems in our societies.

Now, as to why this makes you more left is that the leftist parties are usually (but not always) more culturally progressive as opposed to being conservative/reactionary when faced with questions like gay marriage, abortion etc.. I think the most coherent political view is that of being both culturally and economically leftist, though that is of course subject to debate. If you are both I think you should say you are leftist as well.

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] Cistello@reddthat.com 1 points 3 months ago

Even Donald Duck doesnt subscribe to the abortion ban

load more comments (22 replies)