Do you actually think you'll change anyone's mind by calling their well-conceived ethical frameworks "insane"? THIS is why you get the reputation of being smug. My life's knowledge, my grasp of philosophy, it's all worthless shit to you because I am morally convinced that it's acceptable to kill and eat animals. It doesn't matter why I'm convinced that (and I've learned the hard way it's not worth anyone's time to discuss the reasoning or the why's). I am beneith you.

Calling vegans "smug" is nicer than calling them dehumanizing and ignorant.

What empathy do you have for animals you choose to exploit and kill for taste preference?

As I said in another comment, proselytizing zealous vegans like to strawman non-vegans as all sitting there with a piece of bloody steak on a fork saying "I know some poor cute fluffy animal died a painful death for this but I LOVE the taste of murder". That's not us. If you can't see that, perhaps the first step in your recovery is to actually start to.

Vegans want people to stop doing a bad thing, that doesn’t mean we don’t care about those people, but it does usually mean that we have to argue with them.

As do I, and I have taken a lot of abuse from vegans over the years standing up to those bad things.

And more... That is Word. For. Word. what that guy on the subway says about my gay friends divorcing each other. Word. For. Bloody. Word.

[–] norawibb@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I didnt call your ethical framework insane, I'm talking about your statement saying you have more empathy for animals than vegans have for you, which is beyond ridiculous to say. You literally strawmanned my argument, I didn't appeal to cuteness or scary words. It's a logical question that you just didnt answer. Taking 'abuse' from vegans... maybe we are just convinced its morally okay, or does being a victim not feel good to you? As for the last thing you said, I have literally no idea what you are talking about.

[–] abraxas@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I didnt call your ethical framework insane, I’m talking about your statement saying you have more empathy for animals than vegans have for you, which is beyond ridiculous to say

Have you ever heard of the personal incredulity fallacy?

You literally strawmanned my argument

Did I? What exactly do you think my ethical framework is if it's not either ignorance or lack of empathy... when you directly accused me of having less empathy for animals?

It’s a logical question that you just didnt answer.

Where do you ever ask me a question that I didn't answer?

Taking ‘abuse’ from vegans… maybe we are just convinced its morally okay, or does being a victim not feel good to you?

Rephrase please, so I don't get you even more on the defensive by answering the wrong question. Because this one came across as a softball one that you would not like the answer to.

As for the last thing you said, I have literally no idea what you are talking about.

I have sat through a "discussion" where several of my gay friends were told "we want people to stop doing a bad thing, that doesn’t mean we don’t care about those people". I have a friend who was kicked out of his home at 15 to almost that exact phrasing. Preachy Vegans come across EXACTLY like that to everyone else in the world. When I look a preachy vegan in the eyes, I see that bigoted Catholic dad who kicks his kid to the curb.

Do you have kids? What would you do if one of them came out non-vegan to you? What if they decided their calling was ranching? I've got a cousin who got a degree in dairy farming and he LOVES it.

[–] norawibb@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No I heard your sentence and called it stupid and I still can't believe you are going with it because it is laughable. Go on, explain how you are nicer to animals more than vegans are to you. You are still alive so we haven't eaten you yet... Do you kill and eat people you care about?

You said you are taking 'abuse' from vegans in the same comment you said you see nothing wrong with killing and eating someone. I can't take your victim point seriously when you refuse to acknowledge the feelings of your victims.

As your your gay friends thing, its a false equivalence despite what the words are. Gay people don't have victims. Nonvegans do. I'm defining "bad thing" as an action that harms others. Being gay is also not a choice and is nothing like being nonvegan. You aren't a fucking minority for being nonvegan. What a dumbass insulting argument.

[–] abraxas@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

No I heard your sentence and called it stupid and I still can’t believe you are going with it because it is laughable

Wait. I thought you said you weren't smug?

Go on, explain how you are nicer to animals more than vegans are to you

Already did. And I didn't say "vegans are to me" I said "vegans are to non-vegans".

You are still alive so we haven’t eaten you yet… Do you kill and eat people you care about?

Is that the only moral in your world? DO what thou wilt as long as you don't eat animals? My usual critique is that vegans have this over-simplified 2d understanding of ethics and the environment. So it kinda fits.

You said you are taking ‘abuse’ from vegans in the same comment you said you see nothing wrong with killing and eating someone

Is animal personhood a requirement for someone to be said to have empathy towards animals? Or are you just getting a little bit unhinged with cannibalism talk? You are allowed to walk away you know.

I can’t take your victim point seriously when you refuse to acknowledge the feelings of your victims

As far as I can tell, you don't seem to be taking anything non-vegan seriously. You've kinda proven the entire discussion and we can both move on.

As your your gay friends thing, its a false equivalence despite what the words are. Gay people don’t have victims. Nonvegans do

Funny thing, that's what they'd say. Bodies are temples, Jesus' consent, yada yada yada.

I’m defining “bad thing” as an action that harms others

Bit of a simplified definition, if I do say myself. As a utilitarian, I'd like to point out the spiderweb in any ethical decision as everything can harm others in some way.

Being gay is also not a choice and is nothing like being nonvegan. You aren’t a fucking minority for being nonvegan. What a dumbass insulting argument.

Your only options are that I turn vegan or I'm inferior to you. You REALLY don't like educated interlocutors, do you?

[–] norawibb@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

say something very stupid

call any argument against it smug

We are both being smug right now because this argument is stupid.

You did a poor job explaining then. You made up that statement. I'm asking how you can be empathetic to someone you murder and eat. Why would that be my only moral issue?

Oh you didn't like when I referred to animals as 'someone'. Yeah so much empathy.

Never called you inferior, captain strawman. Stop making shit up. And your rebuttal to the religious thing didn't make any sense. How was that at all equivalent, or have to do with what I said?

Gay people don't make a choice, you do. And to relate them to your choice to harm others is insulting to their struggle. So gfy with this point