this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2024
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I definitely don't consider WhatsApp to be private, Signal doesn't support multiple Android devices and Threema sounds pretty useless. So it would seem there's no real options? Which is a shame.
Yup, all the 'more private' ones like SimpleX or Session don't have as many features and are have pretty suspicious funding sources (or involved in crypto).
WhatsApp might be private but there's no way to be 100% sure, since it's closed source and can leak some messages in reports which is intentional.
Yes and no about Signal supporting multiple Android devices, the Molly fork might be able to if you set it up as a linked device, and we know that apple tablets can be linked in the actual Signal app.
Given that SimpleX can be self-hosted, I'm definitely looking at that hopefully. Hopefully someone else develops an app, because cross platform apps are bullshit.
Sadly it won't meet and/all of your requirements, it is pretty barebones on features and doesn't really offer message syncing, you have to create a new account for every device, last we checked.
What do you mean cross platform apps are bullshit?
We don't think more and more messaging apps solves anything really, it just fractures userbases more and more. The best thing folks can do is use the apps that are the most likely for folks to use and work on improving them either by coding for them, or keeping on suggesting and voting for ideas until they get implimented.
Moving again and again to newest app of the week 562 won't make the situation any better, not to mention most of them probably haven't had security audits at all or very sparsely if they have, so their privacy and security can't really be verified.
You'll be pained to find a world-class app that's written on a cross platform base. They tend to miss the intricacies of native design conventions and tend to be sluggish.
I was actually part of the discussions for Signal implementing stories and the same type of people who were saying they didn't see the point in adding stories and wanted an option to turn them off, also were vocal enough to get them put in a tab. It's like the vocal minorities on Reddit that want small phones and think front facing cameras are a waste of time. They get in the way of real progress. What my 18 year old cousin wants from a messenger app is very different to what you or even I want, but the key to growth is definitely developing with the 18 year old in mind.
Sorry, just noticed your pronouns in your username. How do I use them properly? Do I replace you with cele and your with celes?
That's fair, although really that's unfortunately because from what we know of there's no really good cross platform languages/toolkits etc, so usually we do have to end up with some half-assed solution or folks having to maintain multiple native code bases. Either situation isn't ideal, but until something that provides the option for genuine security and native looks that works well across all platforms is developed we'll be kind of stuck.
Oh, sad. Hopefully we can kick up enough of a fuss to evetually get it moved. We don't know if we agree entirely that developing for only one demographic is always the best idea, but more demographics should be considered for sure, yeah.
No, cele/celes are third person pronouns, not second person, our second person pronouns are y'all etc.
It reminds me of how Mozilla was hemorrhaging contributors but kept trying to stick to IRC. I'm definitely not saying don't support the legacy contributors, but be aware of what modern demographics want to use and why, because if you're not moving forward, you're being left behind.
And thank y'all for the clarification, I'll be sure to get them right in future posts. Forgive my earlier ignorance. I didn't mean to disrespect y'all.
Oof, yeah IRC is awful and sadly we're forced to use some things that still use IRC to communicate and we're not really sure why. There does seem to be a derth of users that have moved with the times in leadership positions of important projects.
We have seen it recently with some things we use and we hope it strongly forces them to consider being wrong or that it blows up in their faces. Because yeah, we agree if you're not moving with the times you will hemorage contributors and then you'll only be left with the 'old guard' or worse people (such as fascists not that two aren't the same many time, heh).
Also, Mozilla is just a really poorly run company to begin with and needs some serious restructuring and to stop doing things that serves only itself and not its users. If it genuinely cared about its users and allowed direct donations to firefox perhaps folks would have fewer problems with it.
Sure, we are happy to help!
Please explain how a properly set up IRC server is awful. If you find the time also contrast it with the more "modern" solutions like Discord and Slack
Because none of the examples you listed have end-to-end encryption with perfect forward secrecy for one, including IRC. Also, IRC specifically is very confusing to even make a username on and keep it, let alone know how to do anything else on.
We have never used Discord or Slack, specifically because they don't have e2ee, but at least they have, from what we understand, a pretty simple sign up process and good UI/UX.
I admit that is inherently an insecure form of communication. I don't see a problem if you're using PGP though. And at least IRC can be self hosted. I suppose one can use a private Matrix instance too.
What problems are you having in signing up for IRC? Just use a client for your OS? I didn't find it especially hard when I did it, I'm part of a few channels for Linux. Just treat it like you treat any group chat. If there's bots there will also likely be a page with instructions/wiki
Unless you're using PGP on Discord and Slack too I don't understand how you're not disgusted by them.
Yes, this is why we use matrix over IRC due to e2ee. PGP last we checked doesn't have PFS, sadly.
We remember when we used IRC having to remember all those silly commands for nick bots wasn't exactly good UX.
We said that we don't use Discord/Slack for that reason, so yes, we are disgusted by them too.
Yes, it is unfortunate that forward secrecy is missing from all of these. Is there any encryption mechanism for text which maintains PFS? I haven't tried AGE personally.
Haha takes me back, the bots. IRC was much prevalent back then, I suppose I'm just nostalgic. I won't argue against Matrix.
Thanks, so we're on the same page.
Edit: there seems to be some work going into PFS
https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/
https://www.cs.umd.edu/~jkatz/papers/forward-enc-full.pdf