this post was submitted on 20 Aug 2024
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I just don't see a possible victory for Ukraine, at all. Maybe in the past, but at this point it seems like Ukraine should be focused on making their terms of surrender as beneficial to themselves as possible. I don't see Kursk changing that calculus.
Surrender is out of the question for Ukraine. Russia has shown from the first day of the invasion on, that this war is as much a land grab, as it is a punishment for not being Russian enough.
Russia has been grinding for years now with only miniscule wins, while Ukraine has made some very successful counter offensives. Ukraine simply has the better army. Whether they can win back their territory depends on international support. But even if that fades, I don't see a scenario in which they just give up. And Russia will only give them an acceptable peace deal if Putin fears for his power or has been removed. This is in part why they launched the Kursk offensive. They need to pressure Putin or continue grinding.
Also: Holding Russian land is maybe the best bargaining chip they have for future negotiations.
What? From day 1, Russia has made it clear that it wants to grab the contested territories, and demilitarize Ukraine as a consequence of unimpeded NATO expansion. NATO has ignored Russia's demands and pressed further.
Slow and steady wins are wins. Ukraine hasn't managed to turn the tide.
With respect to what?
You're saying Ukraine will fight to their last breath? The war is becoming increasingly unpopular as time goes on, do you expect this trend to reverse at some point?
Acceptable to who? You? Wouldn't any agreed upon peace-deal be acceptable?
Can they hold it? It seems Kursk is taking away from Ukraine's ability to hold onto key territory.
This is going to be my last message since your last message has made it clear to me that you believe in Russian propaganda and I don't care debating with you about lies.
NATO didn't press eastwards. It welcomed countries that wanted to join because they felt threatened. And it is obvious now that they were right to be scared. Russia demands a sphere of influence. But this is unacceptable for its neighbors. Russia is a colonial empire that can only think in these terms. That's why they believe that these countries that want to join NATO don't have a will of their own and are US puppets. Which makes them fair game. This is not only wrong but also inhumane. It takes away the people's dignity and their right for peace.
And for the love of God. Don't forget the war crimes committed by Russian soldiers on a systematic and large scale. Mass executions, torture, rape, etc. Those weren't isolated incidents, they were part of the plan. And Putin himself handed out medals for the commanders of the most notorious units.
That's the point. Since the run on Kiev the russians have lost far more territory than they gained.
With respect to the Russians. Given the Ukrainian wins, they are clearly doing a better job than the Russians.
I'm saying they won't accept a deal in which Ukraine becomes demilitarized and at Russia's mercy. And that's the only deal the Russians are offering right now. Even if they lose the resources to launch offensives, they will dig in and defend as long as they can. And this might go on not for years, but decades.
Again, the only deal Russia is willing to give Ukraine at the moment is equal to unconditional surrender. That's not a peace deal. It's a farce.
That remains to be seen. It's also taking away from Russia's ability to attack in those other regions. Also, this attack shows that Russia has been concentrating its troops on the active front (probably because they felt safe because of western weapon restrictions). Russia was enjoying an asymmetrical advantage. Ukraine took that away.
NATO was formed to be anti-Russia, and has continued to expand eastward against formalized warnings from Russia. NATO itself said that the cause of war was Putin's fear of Ukraine also joining NATO. Was NATO lying?
Russia is in many ways an evil bourgeois dictatorship, but you seem to be brushing Ukranian shelling of pro-Russian territories within Ukraine, and Ukranian warcrimes including mass executions, torture, and rape as well. Russia is not absolved of their crimes, and neither is Ukraine.
Given that Ukraine is losing, they are clearly better than the Russians. What?
I asked in what manner is the Ukranian military better, materially. Is it vibes?
What choice will they have? They are continuing to lose capable fighters and resources.
Again, does Ukraine have any choice in the future? Where is the path to victory? Seems like you just want to send Ukranians to their deaths.
So as Russia continues to advance and Kursk falls back to Russian hands, you'll applaud this grand show of virtue signaling?
Mate don't bother. Lemmy.ml believes Russia to be invincible, whatever reality says. It's just for some weird reason they're allowing the war to drag on instead of just smashing Ukraine.
I've tried reason about this before but they just don't care.
So weird they're happy to sit in their unassailable fortifications depopulating the enemy military instead of going on the offensive and taking unnecessary casualties now that they've achieved their territorial goals. I am a very intelligent person (you can tell by my smug affect) and I just can't put together a rational motivation for this.
Buddy, even mainstream western media no longer believes Ukraine can win this war. The "weird" reason for fighting a war of attrition is to avoid taking massive losses the way Ukraine did during their fabled offensive last year. Maybe before trying to "reason" with people you should spend a modicum of time to actually understand the subject yourself.
Friend, you do not read mainstream media, do you?
Friend, I bet I read a lot more mainstream media than you do.
Buddy, I bet not. But it's no competition. I asked because that's not what mainstream media is saying at all. Or to be fair, I don't know what country you live in, maybe they're producing that image.
It's pretty funny how you expose yourself as a liar here because it's very much what mainstream media is saying across the west. Here's a sample for you so you can educate yourself on what the media in the west is saying: