this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2023
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Fediverse

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A community to talk about the Fediverse and all it's related services using ActivityPub (Mastodon, Lemmy, KBin, etc).

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My Problems with Mastodon

Even with growing pains accommodating an influx of new users, Lemmy has made it clear that a federated social media site can be nearly as good as the original thing. I joined Lemmy, and it exceeded my expectations for a Reddit alternative run by an independent team.

These expectations were originally pretty low when Mastodon, the popular federated Twitter alternative, was the only federated social media I had experience with. After using Lemmy, Mastodon seems to be missing basic features. I initially believed these were just shortcomings of federated social media.

  1. Likes aren't counted by users outside your instance, and replies don't seem to be counted at all (beyond 0, 1, 1+), leading to posts that look like they have way more boosts (retweets) than likes or replies:

    This incentivizes people to just gravitate toward the biggest instance more than people already do. My guess is that self-hosting a mastodon instance would also not be ideal, since the only likes you'll see are your own.

  2. There's really only one effective ways to find popular or 'trending' posts. There's the explore tab which has 'posts', and 'tags' sections.

    The 'posts' section shows some trending posts across your instance and all the instances that it's federated with, this is the one I use it the most.

    The 'tags' section is a lot like the trending tab on Twitter, but it's reserved just for hashtags, which I guess isn't a huge deal, but it feels like a downgrade. However, I do like the trend line it shows next to each tag!

    The 'Local' and 'Federated' tabs are a live feed of post from your home instance and all the other instances, respectively. I feel these are pretty useless and definitely don't warrant their own tabs. Having a local trending tab for seeing popular posts on your instance would be more interesting.

  3. The search bar basically doesn't work, is this just me???

  4. This one is more minor and more specific to a Twitter alternative, but when looking at a user's follows, you'll only see the one's on your home instance but for some reason this rule doesn't apply to followers.

From what I've heard, a lot of these issues are intentional in order to create a healthier social media experience. Things like less focus on likes, reduces a hivemind mentality, addiction, things like that (I couldn't find a source for this, if anyone has one confirming or disproving this please lmk).

Why this is a Problem

Mastodon seems to have two goals: To be an example of how a federated alternative to Twitter can work well, and to be a healthier social media experience. It's not obvious, but I think these goals conflict with each other. A lot of the features that are removed in the pursuit of a healthier social media will be perceived as the shortcomings of federation as a concept.

In my eyes, Mastodon's one main goal should be proving federated social media as a whole to the public, by being a seamless, familiar, full-featured alternative to Twitter. For me, Lemmy has done that for Reddit, upvotes are counted normally, you can see trending posts locally and globally same with communities, and the search function works! All its shortcomings aren't design flaws, and I fully expect them to be fixed down the road as it matures.

As annoying as Jack Dorsey is, I have high hopes for BlueSky.

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[–] NENathaniel@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago

Huh I thought people on Mastodon just tended to prefer “retweets” over Likes haha

[–] chalupapocalypse@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I like it as a concept but it's got some growing to do.

[–] Vub@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I don’t have any issues with it. I use Ice Cubes, it’s awesome.

[–] Fez@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (11 children)

So users viewing this post on another instance will see the same exact comments and upvotes?

[–] Valdair@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

Indeed, at least that's the idea. Viewing and posting from kbin.social.

[–] Nevoic@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's the idea, but in practice since the data exists independently on each server, it takes network time and computational time for them to align. In practice I expect comments to function as you expect, and upvotes to be slightly off depending on which instance you're viewing from.

Things get a bit more weird when an instance gets defederated from another instance. My understanding here is that if you have instance A defederate from instance B, but instance B was listening to some of instance A's communities, that instance B will have an independent replica of that community that doesn't sync (this happened when beehaw defederated from open registration instances like lemmy.world).

[–] myxi@feddit.nl 3 points 1 year ago

Hi from feddit.nl 🙌!

[–] CynicalStoic@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

Hello from kbin.social 👋

[–] sunbunman@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

My understanding is yes, but only if the instances have federated with each other.

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[–] randint@feddit.nl 4 points 1 year ago

I believe the 0, 1, 1+ reply counts is a setting available to your instance admins. Mine actually does count.

[–] MyOpinion@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I love mastodon and it’s funny little brother Lemmy. Both are great.

[–] btonz@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Care to elaborate? Do you agree or disagree with the op on any of their takes?

[–] semidetached@geddit.social 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I've been on and off mastodon since 2019 and I've really wanted to like it, however the lack of a usable search kills it for me. I guess when your the main dev and you have half of mastodon following you a usable search isn't really necessary. Someone did try to work on a way to scrape and make mastodon searchable but they got hounded off mastodon I believe?

I tried to use hashtags but the ones I followed seemed to have a large number of terminally online/bots posting links making finding anything useful practically useless. In the end I got fed up of the feeling I was shouting into the void. I want to use and like Mastodon but I felt like I was fighting the system.

I'm just glad Lemmy seems to have taken off it's not perfect but it's certainly on the way

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[–] ShittyKopper@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

> The ‘Local’ and ‘Federated’ tabs are a live feed of post from your home instance and all the other instances, respectively. I feel these are pretty useless and definitely don’t warrant their own tabs. Having a local trending tab for seeing popular posts on your instance would be more interesting.

I might agree with you on federated, but the local timeline on smaller or tight knit instances tend to be really nice. I'm on this instance's Hajkey (slightly customized Firefish fork) and spend most of my time on the local timeline. It's only when you get to the size of .social, .online and whatnot that it loses it's usefulness. And that seems to be the direction website boy wants to take Mastodon given he took the local timeline out from the official Mastodon mobile app.

> The search bar basically doesn’t work, is this just me???

Full text search is an admin setting that can be turned on and off I believe. It (the way Mastodon implements it at least) takes a lot of server resources which is why most instances don't bother.

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[–] kratoz29@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

I have barely ever used Twitter and yet I tried Mastodon, but it is uninteresting to me, maybe I just don't like microblogging social media, Reddit/Lemmy in other part is easier for me to get addicted lol.

[–] Zak@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)
  1. It actually does appear that Mastodon doesn't know how many replies there are until it loads them for display. Glitch, a Mastodon fork with some UI enhancements has an option to display an estimate of the number of replies. Lemmy obviously displays an exact comment count while using the same protocol. There may be a performance/efficiency motivation for this.
  2. A trending feature should probably have the option to include federated content, as some instances are very small, even single-user.
  3. I find the stance taken by Mastodon's developer and many users... I'll be charitable and say unreasonable. It's about a dozen lines of code to add a proper search and there are two ways to do it (Postgres text search is easy, Elasticsearch may be better for big servers). Some server admins have implemented this.
  4. I'm seeing that for both follows and followers.

There are other ActivityPub Twitter-alikes that may meet your needs better, such as Akkoma. Akkoma has reasonable search, can show remote follows and followers, and seems to keep accurate reply counts. It's not as polished looking though.

[–] ShittyKopper@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There may be a performance/efficiency motivation for this.

Lemmy communities work by having a psuedo-user that "boosts" all posts and comments it receives to all it's subscribers, meaning all instances are aware of all comments (as long as at least one user is subscribed, and barring any defederation). I'm not entirely sure on what the "reply fetching algorithm" of Masto is, but it doesn't go out of it's way to fill everything.

3rd party exists

[–] REdOG@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Meh The modlog is so active it's dead

To me they're two different things, to be used in different ways, which is a good thing, I suppose.

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