this post was submitted on 22 Jun 2023
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Seems like the problem isn't with democracy, but with the western falvor of liberal parliamentary democracy. Democracy is working just fine in China according to people who live there. All the available studies, including ones coming from prominent western institutions such as Harvard, consistently show that China is democratic and that public satisfaction with the government is far higher than in any western country:
Sorry, you can't have democracy without basic political agency. You can't have basic political agency without the ability to speak freely.
Picking between three party approved technocrats is not sufficient for political self determination.
In that case, democracy doesn't exist anywhere in the world and likely could never exist.
There are plenty of places where citizens are free to engage in normal discussions about politics, and particularly the history of their own country.
But yes, nothing is perfect, the world is not your false dichotomy, and every system should seek to iteratively improve. China should seek to grant its citizens more individual freedoms as well, wouldn't you agree? This is very low hanging fruit for free society, and China has a lot more work to do than the west on this particular issue.
Somebody should let people like Assange, Manning, and Snowden know that they can speak freely.
Ah yes, real democracy is picking between parties owned by the oligarchs. 😂
Imagine believing there are no oligarchs in China.
Imagine thinking oligarchs control China 😂
It's like you don't even have a passing familiarity with Chinese politics. The local councils which the average person can actually vote for are notoriously corrupt. Easily as bad as anything you'll find in the west, and often far more so.
It's like I linked a whole bunch of scholarly articles from institutions like Harvard explaining Chinese politics. The reality is that people in China have seen their lives consistently improve with each and every decade. Countless studies show that the standard of living in China is improving at an incredible rate, and that people see the government work in their interest.
And yes, China isn't perfect, there's corruption, but that's missing the point entirely. Corruption exists in every human society, the discussion is whose interest the government is working in. In the west the government works in the interest of the capital owning class, in China it works in the interest of the working majority.
Bro, I have family in China and have lived there for a few years. You are completely delusional about how this works in practice. I've also seen the real terror on the real face of a real person when you so much as utter some controversial political language in the wrong company.
It's actually insane to me that you will call the west brainwashed, and then quote satisfaction surveys of the CCP without a hint of self awareness. Come on. You want actual data? China is ranked lower than basically every other developed nation on the global corruption perception index.
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022
Bro I have friends from China, and lots of my friends moved back to China after university. Weird how Chinese students keep returning to China because it's such a hell right. What's insane is that somebody could live in the west and not see the brainwashing.
Meanwhile, it's absolutely hilarious how you keep going on about corruption when countries like US have an entire government owned by the oligarchs.
Again, the fact you keep dancing around is that quality of life in China has been improving dramatically by practically every measure, meanwhile the opposite is happening in the west. That's the elephant in the room mr. transparency index.
So what you are saying is that you suddenly aren't interested in data? Because I was really looking forward to comparing stuff like rural educational attainment, PPP, various human development indices, freedom, democracy indices. There's like a bunch of stuff which basically backs up what is plainly visible to anyone - that the west has been raising people out of poverty for 200 and is still doing a pretty decent job of it.
Look, we all know that western liberalism has a lot of really fucking dumb shit about it in the current iteration. And I will definitely acknowledge that there are a lot of good ideas in China. China's economic miracle is laudable, but - and I say this as a person with an actual stake in Chinese society - it's time for China to do better, and China doesn't get better when delusional tankies defend it's many clear and obvious problems.
You mean data such as this? https://www.businessinsider.com/typical-chinese-adult-now-richer-than-europeans-wealth-report-finds-2022-9
That's a false statement:
Western liberalism has resulted in some of the worst crimes against humanity in the past 200 years such as the slave trade and the genocide of the native population in America to name a couple.
Nobody said China couldn't and shouldn't do better or that China doesn't have problems. This is literally the case for every human society. However, what's being argued is that China is demonstrably producing better material outcomes than western liberal democracies are.
Again, compared to the west, China is still a poor country. Yes it is growing, and that growth has been very impressive, and there is much we can all learn from it. But to claim that China has surpassed the west in terms of eliminating poverty is simply incorrect.
You are making a moral argument, to which I am marginally sympathetic, and backing it up with bad information.
The numbers say that people in China are now better off than people in Europe. And this is with China having to rebuild itself after a civil war and the destruction in WW2. Meanwhile, the reason the west is rich is because the west colonized the rest of humanity and has been brutally exploiting it. Claiming that the west is rich because of liberalism is factually wrong. The west is rich because it enslaved billions of people across the globe plundering their labour and resources.
What specifically is the bad information you're referring to. I've provided you with the actual numbers here.
So far you have provided a survey about government satisfaction. When presented with data which shows that China is quite a bit more corrupt than the west, you changed the subject to argue prosperity and wealth.
And on those topics, you are wrong as well. China trails the west considerably on:
Human Development Index:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
GDP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
GDP per Capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
Educational Attainment:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment https://www.worldeconomics.com/Indicator-Data/ESG/Social/Mean-Years-of-Schooling/
Access to Indoor Plumbing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proportion_of_the_population_using_improved_sanitation_facilities
Social Mobility:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
Labor productivity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_labour_productivity
Minimum wage:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_minimum_wage
We could keep going here. You are very clearly the one who is cherry picking data. Like many people who make these ridiculous claim, you seem to be under the impression that everyone in China lives in tier 1 cities, and ignore things like China's hukou caste system, or the fact that the average rural Chinese person does not even attempt a high school education.
Again, I acknowledge that China has made miraculous advancements in many of these areas, and will likely be on par or even surpass the west in many of these this century. However, you are clearly arguing in bad faith, moving goalposts and ranting about a bunch of things you seem to have quite a poor grasp of.
Again, you Wikipedia is not exactly the most reliable source for these things, and I've provided you with very different numbers from other sources. Pretty much every source that accounts for stuff like PPP shows that China is doing quite well compared to the west. However, you once again ignore the fact that the west had a head start, and that the wealth in the west comes from colonialism. China's growth doesn't come at the cost of impoverishment of other countries the way western growth does. Finally, the really important part is the trajectory. Life in China is improving, life in the west is getting worse.
And claiming that when I'm arguing in bad faith or moving goal posts when I've been consistently saying the same thing and backing up with sources says everything I need to know about you. Bye.
I am still waiting to see your sources on any of this tbh
Not sure what you're waiting for given that I've already provided you sources backing everything I said.
Well then it should be easy for you to consolidate them in one comment.
I'm not going to waste more time on you. It's pretty clear you're just going to keep ignoring everything I say and repeating the same thing like a broken record. You don't want to have an honest discussion here.
On the contrary, I am trying to have a conversation. I have attempted to address every premise you've offered with a combination of history, data and personal experience. I don't believe you have offered sources for many of your claim, but in case I missed them, it would be helpful if you provided a summary.
If you are trying to have a conversation then we're clearly talking past each other. My points are as follows.
I have sourced all these claims in this thread.
A major difference between China and the West re: corruption is that it's institutionalized in the West and called "lobbying." Because of this, it's easy for Westerners to point at China and say local councils are "notoriously corrupt" but not bat an eye at lobbyists, rich donors, and [super]pacs swaying Congressional votes.
From your own damn source.
🤣
oh hey, why don't you quote the rest of it? 😂
I'm not interested in any political system where I can't criticize the ruling party without fearing for my or my family's safety or permanently becoming unable to find employment anywhere except coal/steel plants working 12-14/hours straight 6 days a week for piss wages...
This political system you made up sounds fascinating.
Don't get me wrong, I'm an anarchist, I'm against the USA model as much as the Chinese model.
But lol, yeah sorry, not interested in being forced to conform by a hierarchy of "leaders" who have no inherent right to do so in the name of "society" or some vague idea of the greater good/social contract.
You let us all know when there's a successful anarchist experiment that lasts more than a week.
Now do the same for communism (the marxist type, not Leninism/stalinism/maoism.)
What communists accomplished in USSR, China, Cuba, Laos, and Vietnam are all successes of communism, even if they don't fit with your ideals. All of these revolutions have resulted in huge tangible improvements in the standard of living for the people, and created far more egalitarian societies than anything seen under capitalism.
Not really successes at all if you've read your Marx.
All of them followed in Stalins 'leninistic' (how ironic) approach. With a single ruler that reeks of old fashioned monarchism rather then the rule of the prolitariat. Some of them even renouncing communism and embracing blatant capitalism (some only embracing capitalism but staying communist in name only).
The only thing they do for pure marxism is accelerating the revolution to come, but actualy condoning repression in other places just for that sake is quite fin de siecle type of marxist thought.
Having read my Marx, I know that Marx realized that Leninistic approach would be necessary to create a socialist state. This is the key disagreement Marx had with anarchists. Furthermore, it's obvious that when the world is dominated by a capitalist hegemon, socialist states exist under siege. The fact that you equate socialist states with monarchism shows profound lack of understanding of the subject you're debating.
Doesn't north Korea's dynastic autocratic rule appear slightly monarchistic to you? Autocratic would be a better word than monarchistic in general.
But there isn't a single 'communist' state where the prolitariat do the ruling
It's pretty clear that the proletariat very much do the ruling in Vietnam, China, Cuba. Again, it's not some uptopian society, but it is one where the government represents the interests of the majority. This is clearly demonstrated by the differing outcomes from capitalist states where the governments serve the interests of the capital owning class. Even in case of DPRK, productive forces are still largely turned towards the interests of the people as opposed to enriching oligarchs through exploitation of the working class.
Core industry of the country being publicly owned is the first step towards communism, and that's what socialist states accomplish. The current fight is to overthrow global capitalism as the dominant system. Only once that's achieved will anything better be possible. It's not possible to get to some utopian society from where the world is today, and this is what Marxists realize. Change is a process, and we look for tangible material improvements in the conditions of the majority. Focusing on maximizing personal freedoms before basic needs are met is simply a case of putting the cart before the horse.
Well I think it depends on your interpretation. I personally think the post Stalin brands of communism are doing the movement a disservice as in my view they misrepresent the communist ideology.
For instance i don't see much immigration from people in capitalist nations to any of the countries you mentioned, even not people who embrace that brand of socialism. If there's any talk about migrating from capitalist countries to more socialist ones, is usually people from the states to (slightly more) socialist places like Germany or Scandinavia.
Therefore my opinion is that communist ideas are better propagated through that manner. Armed uprisings tend to leave the most ruthless competitor in charge to get corrupted by the power and not actually following through with the communist plan and devise a brand of socialism in which them being in charge is also communist.
But i think we fundamentally disagree on that. That's not bad, though. I can see some reason to some of the brand of socialism that is general on lemmygrad. The only thing I fail to comprehend is the support of the current Russian leadership as they don't even pretend to have anything to do with socialist ideology.
Until somebody shows how to do better, I'll go with what actually works. Meanwhile, immigration argument is not sound because people who would immigrate to these countries don't have the means to do so. People with the means to immigrate are the ones largely benefiting from the exploitation happening under capitalism.
I'd also say that it's also incorrect to call places like Germany or Scandinavia socialist in a Marxist sense. These are capitalist countries with a social safety net. In Marxist theory, socialism is the transitional period between capitalism and communism where the proletariat holds power, but capitalist relations have not been fully abolished. This is clearly not the case in these countries.
Finally, I don't think anybody would argue that Russia today is socialist in any sense. It's a capitalist country with an oligarchy ruling over it much as we see in the west. However, Russia is actively helping break US domination over the world. This is a necessary step in order for socialism to flourish anywhere. I also see Russia falling into Chinese sphere of influence as a net positive. Majority of older people in Russia still have fond memories of USSR, and young people are now increasingly looking at Chinese model as the way forward. Putin won't be around forever, and once he is gone there will be opportunity for positive change.
Of the countries in discussion, I've only ever been to Cuba. Well it seems like a posterchild for succesful socialism and even a non-dynastic ruler. There are two currencies, one that you can use in basic shops and one for tourists (KUK). The thing is that everyone is trying their damdest to get their hands on the KUK's as you can only use that to buy luxury products. It's not even weird if you see what you can buy in the governement stores. It doesnt keep capitalism out, it fetishises it.
I did call European countries slightly more socialist, from an American pov, which is undeniable. There were and are 'socialist' regimes where they had trouble keeping their own people from leaving their country, just for w whiff of the sweet soma of capitalism. The priority, I think, is to first build a state where people are longing to live. And considering global migration the majority of economic refugees seeks capitalis countries. The power of money seems the driving problem, because it gets people what they want. You have to find a system that works better than money, that is the hard nut to crack, because it works harder the more of it you own.
Aha, that's the angle I missed, that makes sense in a way, thanks. I really woudn't underestimate the ability of unfettered captitalism and cronyism to break US domination on it's own. China seems to step up to the plate quite forcefully, not through arms, but through, quite literally, owning the means of production. I do only fear their power of surveillance, and I do not condone it, too orwellian for me.
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Have your considered that Cuba's development may be impacted by the fact that the global hegemon has spent decades finding new and creative ways to fuck Cuba over. It's basically this problem that every existing socialist state has right now https://cym.ie/2020/04/01/left-anti-communism-the-unkindest-cut-by-michael-parenti/
Yet, despite all the problems Cuba has, it has higher life expectancy than US, higher literacy, and it's one of the most sustainable countries in the world. Cuba also managed to effectively protect its population during covid and develop its own vaccines. All while being a tiny island under siege. These are the material tangible benefits that are a direct result of the socialist system Cuba has.
Meanwhile, if the west ever does become socialist then the flavor of socialism it will have will necessarily be rooted in the conditions of the west, its culture, history, and all other factors that are unique to the west. This is why I think there isn't much value in worrying about how China or other socialist countries developed. Each country has its own unique circumstances, and no two are exactly alike. China is different from Cuba, or Vietnam, or what USSR was. The only key principle is that the core of the economy is publicly owned and that the working class holds power as opposed to capitalists. How that's accomplished is up to the people of each country to figure out.
Fallacious argument. Just because something hasn't been successful before or people don't see how to make it work doesn't justify an existing unethical/immoral system. Plenty of people thought it was crazy to imagine a world where slavery wasn't a thing. That didn't justify continuing that system though.
There are many of examples of anarchist or pseudo-anarchist communities that exist. Many Shaolin monastic communities are anarchistic, and egalitarian depending on the sect. Some Mennonite and old world Amish communities are anarchistic also, having only collective property and some personal property, no privatization.
Some first nations tribes were pseudo-anarchist, operating as a collective with egalitarian leadership based largely on life experience and wisdom, they maintained completely voluntary relationships with other tribes in the region and had no private property.
It's not a fallacious argument at all. When people keep trying to do something for over a century and have nothing to show for it, then the onus is on them to demonstrate that it can work. If you tell me that walking sucks because you can flap your arms and fly much faster, then you have to demonstrate that it's actually possible to do.
Communists have built successful communist states that liberated millions of people from capitalist oppression, provided them with education, food, housing, and jobs. These are real tangible improvements that are possible following the communist model.
Anarchists have never achieved any sort of liberation at scale, and these pseudo-anarchist communities don't translate into systemic change in society.
Thanks for these sources.
I'm surprised to see a narrative like this in some of the links, especially the Harvard ones. But I suppose the children of the ruling class need to be taught what the world is actually like if they are to have any hope of continuing to rule it.
It won't serve a Harvard graduate very well to be lied to about what China is like – once their uncle gets them a cushy job, they'll be expected to negotiate with Chinese businesses and diplomats, and that won't go well if all they can repeat is the propaganda line.
It's amazing how much factual information you can find in western sources when you know where to look. The genius of western propaganda though is that majority of people will not read these sources, and will react the way we see a lot of people in this thread reacting when presented with them. There's no need for censorship because people censor themselves collectively. This is the ultimate brainwashing the west managed to achieve.
Lmao, what? You can't be serious.
Wait, are you serious?!
Yeah, I'm as serious as Harvard is. Maybe bother learning about the subject you're opinion on?
The rally cry of the propagandist.
Ah yes, resorting to name calling when you don't have any actual point to make.
Careful now, you've stirred up the china hawks!
Thanks for the sources! Here's another one that I read the other day and found pretty insightful https://www.sinification.com/p/why-chinese-democracy-is-better-than